Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[300Z]

Good call, it sure does, and the DE10 is still listed at PE as backordered at more than twice the price.
I wonder how the DE10 performed.

Zaph tested my own DE10s mounted on the ME10 horns back in 2008, you can see the results on his site.
I have since moved on to the JBL 2408H mounted on the JBL 6x6 PT waveguide, better top end. For the past 7 years I have been running my old Seas 27TDFC on a SEOS 8, all mated to a B&C 8PS21 since 2008.
I'm planning to build another 2 way in the near future using the JBL 2408H and Aura NS6 to use as desk speakers.

 

[Pete B]

Zaph's DE10 measurements are under his tidbits, use CTRL-F search with DE10 to find his comments and graphs:

Zaph|Audio

Zaph|Audio archive: Zaph|Audio. DIY speaker designs and measurements by John Krutke. Preserved and hosted by Madisound Speaker Components.

www.zaphaudio.com

Discussion in this thread: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...llaborative-econowave-speaker.150939/page-335

DE10 and SB 25CD-P are not exactly the same, DE10 has an aluminum VC former, SB is film of some type,
otherwise seem very similar.

 

[Pete B]

JBL PT-H95HF and PT-H95HF-1 12x12" WG 90x50 degree, 1.5" driver
Another big JBL WG, as I said I didn't follow this thread for many years and this was probably discussed
but the PT-H95HF and dash 1 versions are 12" by 12" that looks to be similar to the M2 WG that is rather
expensive, this takes a 1.5" driver. It has a 90x50 pattern and is used in this large system PD-595
as an example: https://www.pssl.com/products/jbl-pd595-15-inch-2-way-full-range-speaker

JBL .pdf doc discussing this guide: https://jblpro.com/en/site_elements/tech-note-progressive-transitiontm-pt-waveguides

In contrast the ELX is 12x8" but seems to be a much more basic design, the clone is at least cheap and it takes a 1" driver.

 

[Pete B]

Zaph tested my own DE10s mounted on the ME10 horns back in 2008, you can see the results on his site.
I have since moved on to the JBL 2408H mounted on the JBL 6x6 PT waveguide, better top end. For the past 7 years I have been running my old Seas 27TDFC on a SEOS 8, all mated to a B&C 8PS21 since 2008.
I'm planning to build another 2 way in the near future using the JBL 2408H and Aura NS6 to use as desk speakers.

@300Z How do you like the JBL 2408H CD? Have you compared them to the 2414H-C?

 

[300Z]

@300Z How do you like the JBL 2408H CD? Have you compared them to the 2414H-C?

I like it a lot, it has better top end extension compared to the DE10 and it's even more efficient, FR needed a little more work to smooth it out but I use a MiniDSP, so that's not a problem, in a passive system it would need more components to get a smooth response, but I really like it.
I have not personally used the 2414H-C, but have tested the 2414H and 2414H-1, they're a smaller driver, it wasn't very happy playing low in the PA boxes I tested. In a home setup it might be ok, but I wouldn't use it bellow 2-2.5khz depending on the horn.

 

[300Z]

@300Z How do you like the JBL 2408H CD? Have you compared them to the 2414H-C?

If I had to buy it now, I would go with the newer 2408H-2, it's a lot cheaper.

JBL Factory Speaker Replacement Driver 2408H-2, 5020337X

 

[Pete B]

HUGE JBL 365359-001-2384 Waveguide, 1.5" entry, 90deg H +30/-20deg Vertical, it looks to be 30" wide:

JBL 2384 Horn/Waveguide, 365359-001 - The Speaker Exchange

Brand New Genuine JBL 365359-001 Horn/Waveguide model 2384 for JBL Cinema 3732, 4722N Speaker System & more. 1.5″ throat.

reconingspeakers.com

I mentioned here that we visited Audio Classics and heard the HUGE Klipsch Jubilee speakers:

Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Ughh, nevermind - they won't fit. I just double-checked. I really want them though. Always wanted some Polk SDA's :) The biggest one though. Not this particular model.

www.audiokarma.org

I wondered where one might get a horn that large if they wanted to do a DIY/econo Jubilee and didn't
think anything would surface for it.

It is used in the JBL 4722 Screen Array Cinema system XO at 800Hz and 630Hz in the -N version:

JBL Professional 4722/4722N

Two-Way ScreenArray™ Cinema Loudspeaker System The ...

jblpro.com

.pdf https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/4722-spec-sheet

I don't have room for anything this large but it could be interesting for someone who has room or a barn, church, school.

 

[Pete B]

I compared the EV ELX112 WG clone to several others here, data from MTG of course:

JBL 6X12 Clone Waveguide, Eminence H290S , Pi H290C and Others Compared

The Pi Speakers H290C Waveguide is a variation on the Eminence H290 WG with the primary difference being that the Eminence is close to an OS taper and the H290C makes it true OS. The differences are described in this thread provided by @safebet ...

www.audiokarma.org

Wondering how low this can be crossed, it depends on the horn taper, the EV XO is 1.7 KHz
but this might be for power handling reasons - not sure:

https://products.electrovoice.com/binary/Live_X_Powered_Loudspeaker_Owners_Manual.pdf

 

[Mazza]

Those systems use a 35mm diameter voice coil compression driver. I'd tend to agree it's for power handling reasons.

I've always aimed for 44mm voice coil CD's for my 12 and 15" woofer builds so I can cross a bit lower. Especially for 15's that would be beaming by 1.7khz which will negatively affect the pattern through the crossover region.

 

[Pete B]

What really matters with any driver is the volume displacement which is the surface area times Xmax
and the Fc of the driver which will start a 12 dB/oct rolloff. Though there is probably more to it since
the JBL 2414H-C driver has a fairly high Fc but plays flat below it.
As far as volume displacement goes, nearly all 1" dome tweeters without a WG will easily cross at 2K
second order, so with what? 10dB of horn gain they should go significantly lower or louder.
Does anyone know how much gain these WGs provide? I threw 10 dB out here as a guess.
Another reference point is that the 1.5" AR3a dome midrange is crossed at 500 Hz 2nd order without
a problem, SPL is limited I'm sure as compared to PA use but for home use a 1.5" CD with decent
volume displacement on a good size WG should go quite low.

I measured Xmax on the D220Ti and from memory it was underhung with generous Xmax, but I believe
that others have much less, if not equal hung coils for 0 linear Xmax. I have to confirm this.

 

[Pete B]

Question, If I open up a bunch of CD s to measure coil and gap height do I have to worry about
ferro fluid loss or anything to do with it? How does one make sure that it goes back together correctly?

 

[mtg90]

Most CDs I've opened don't use ferro fluid, the only ones I have seen it in were junk Pyle brand. However you do have to be careful on the reassembly, some drivers are sensitive to how the back plate is seated and the screws tightened/torqued and will result in resonances and higher distortion if not done correctly. Generally I try to apply slow equal pressure back and forth on each screw to the back plate is tightened evenly. Some have nice gaskets so everything is clamped well but it's quite a headache when you need to pull one apart or loosen and re-torque the screws a dozen times to find the right combination that results in a distortion/buzz free sweep. I've even had brand new CD's where this had to be done.

 

[Pete B]

Thanks, I do have the JBL 2414 that does have ferro fluid, but maybe not the rest.
All that about torque reminds me of repairing dome tweeters and mids in the 70s that didn't
have centering pins. I don't think I'd want to use drivers that are so fidgety, a good drop of
the enclosure might throw them off.
I remember applying a test tone usually around resonance, and tapping the dome, up/down
right left until there was no buzz, tighten, try again.

 

[testwork]

Hi folks, is this still the recommended parts-list for the Econowave Standard?

Everything except for L2 is still available at Parts Express!
But a near-identical spec L2 has been added in red text below, with the original crossed out in black.


All parts & links from this list are posted below:

Jantzen Audio 0.80mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
Part #255-044
$7

Jantzen Audio 0.80mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil

Jantzen Audio 0.80mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover CoilJantzen Audio 20 gauge air core inductors share the same quality and construction as their 18 gauge counterparts, including ±3% tolerance, high-purity copper, and tie-free design. Baked perfect layer air core construction virtually...

www.parts-express.com

Dayton Audio IC184 4.0mH 18 AWG Laminated Iron Core Inductor
Part #257-662 (instead of EOL 266-562)
$9

Dayton Audio IC184 4.0mH 18 AWG Laminated Steel I-Core Speaker Crossover Inductor Coil

Dayton Audio IC184 4.0mH 18 AWG Laminated Steel I-Core Speaker Crossover Inductor CoilDayton Audio 18 gauge steel I-core inductors are the most cost effective choice when large inductance values are needed for subwoofer crossovers. Features fully annealed refined copper wire with baked enamel...

www.parts-express.com

Dayton Audio DMPC-3.3 3.3uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part #027-420
$2

Dayton Audio DMPC-3.3 3.3uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

Dayton Audio DMPC-3.3 3.3uF 250V Polypropylene CapacitorMake the Dayton Audio line of metallized polypropylene capacitors your standard choice for all of your loudspeaker projects! The same high quality as the competing brands ... but at a much lower price. They are suitable for a wide range of...

www.parts-express.com

Dayton Audio DMPC-10 10uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part #027-428
$5

Dayton Audio DMPC-10 10uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

Dayton Audio DMPC-10 10uF 250V Polypropylene CapacitorMake the Dayton Audio line of metallized polypropylene capacitors your standard choice for all of your loudspeaker projects! The same high quality as the competing brands ... but at a much lower price. They are suitable for a wide range of...

www.parts-express.com

Dayton Audio DMPC-0.47 0.47uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part #027-406
$1

Dayton Audio DMPC-0.47 0.47uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

Dayton Audio DMPC-0.47 0.47uF 250V Polypropylene CapacitorMake the Dayton Audio line of metallized polypropylene capacitors your standard choice for all of your loudspeaker projects! The same high quality as the competing brands ... but at a much lower price. They are suitable for a wide range...

www.parts-express.com

Dayton Audio DNR-30 30 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
Part #004-30
$2

Dayton Audio DNR-30 30 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor

Dayton Audio DNR-30 30 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade ResistorDayton Audio DNR Series "Audio Grade" resistors are primarily used in Zobel networks and fixed L-Pad attenuator circuits. Nickel-chromium elements, a high thermal conductivity ceramic core, and welded construction all contribute to...

www.parts-express.com

Dayton Audio DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
Part #004-16
$2

Dayton Audio DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor

Dayton Audio DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade ResistorDayton Audio DNR Series "Audio Grade" resistors are primarily used in Zobel networks and fixed L-Pad attenuator circuits. Nickel-chromium elements, a high thermal conductivity ceramic core, and welded construction all contribute to...

www.parts-express.com

Parts Express Speaker L-Pad Attenuator 50W Mono 1" Shaft 8 Ohm
Part #260-255
$14

Parts Express Speaker L-Pad Attenuator 50W Mono 1" Shaft 8 Ohm

Parts Express Speaker L-Pad Attenuator 50W Mono 1" Shaft 8 OhmL-pads adjust the relative volume of drivers connected to them by placing added resistance in series. At the same time, a counter-resistance is placed in parallel with the driver to maintain a constant impedance which allows the...

www.parts-express.com

Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18
Part #264-270
$80

JBL Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18

JBL Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18The JBL Selenium D220Ti-8 horn driver's diaphragm is formed from pure, rigid, light, and extremely thin titanium (0.025 mm). To avoid stress and distortion, the suspension has specially designed reinforcement. An injected-molded phase...

www.parts-express.com

Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI
Part #270-318
$19

Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI

Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPIThe Dayton Audio H6512 high frequency waveguide is precision molded from durable ABS plastic, and has an industry-standard 1-3/8" x 18 TPI throat for mounting screw-on style drivers. Its unique flare geometry exhibits a nominal 90°...

www.parts-express.com

Dayton Audio DC300-8 12" Classic Woofer
Part #295-320
$60

Dayton Audio DC300-8 12" Classic Woofer

Dayton Audio DC300-8 12" Classic WooferDayton Audio Classic Series woofers are excellent for use as replacement speakers or for new loudspeaker system design and construction. The DC300-8 12" woofer has developed quite a reputation for having the best bang-for-the-buck performance and value...

www.parts-express.com

------------------
$201 (per speaker)

lol originally only$126 when Zilch first created the list

 

[testwork]

Anyone still have a line on the PCB's for the standard?

All I've found are MGB's Delite 10 PCB's.

 

[mtg90]

Those PCBs are available here.

 

[turnitdown]

That's the original and still reigning Standard for sure. PM Wiredbecker for the PCBs.

 

[testwork]

Tks

Not quite the amazing deal that it used to be but it's still great.

 

[lee1000]

L1 is good to go. Jack designed L2's mounting hardware for Erse's standard iron core inductor using 4 mounting bolts. Erse's Super Q mounting hardware consists of 2 bolts and physically occupies the same PCB real estate so that might be a more stable fit with minimal alteration to the existing Econowave PCB. Basically drill two holes and you're good to go.

Here's the updated LE14A Econowave BOM including Rational35's inductor suggestions:

C1: Dayton Audio DMPC-4.7 4.7uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part # 027-422

C2: Dayton Audio DMPC-15 15uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part # 027-432

C3: Dayton Audio DMPC-1.5 1.5uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part # 027-412

L1: Dayton Audio 0.60mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
Part # 257-040

L2: ERSE Super Q 2.0mH 16 AWG 500W Inductor Crossover Coil
Part # 266-904 (or if you aren't using Zilch's PCBs: Jantzen 5811 2.0mH 13 AWG P-Core Inductor, Part # 255-157)

R1: Dayton Audio DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
Part # 004-16

R2: Dayton Audio DNR-25 25 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
Part # 004-25

LPad: L-Pad 50W Mono 1" Shaft 8 Ohm
Part # 260-255

Binding posts: Dayton Audio BPA-38SN HD Binding Post Pair Satin Nickel
Part # 091-1247

Waveguide: Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI -
Part # 270-318

Compression driver: Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18 Part # 264-270

Hi,

I'm just wondering if there are any other alternatives I can use for the 2.0mH 0.143 DCR inductor instead of

L2: ERSE Super Q 2.0mH 16 AWG 500W Inductor Crossover Coil
Part # 266-904 (or if you aren't using Zilch's PCBs: Jantzen 5811 2.0mH 13 AWG P-Core Inductor, Part # 255-157)

I'm in Australia and struggling to find these parts.

I found these https://speakerbug.com.au/index.php?route=product/product&path=18_45&product_id=748

Jantzen P-Core 2mH 17AWG​

They have a DCR of 0.18. Is that okay in the LE14A econowave schematic?

I can't seem to find anywhere locally that stocks Jantzen 5811.

Thanks

 

[mtg90]

That one should be fine to use.

Also the info in that quote is not correct, the Erse Super-Q inductor is almost double the size of the standard Erse I-core and will not fit on the standard PCB.