Replacement woofers for Altec A-7?
- Thread starter dread31
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Dayton!
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-080
A few of us have tried these and I have not heard anyone say a bad thing about them.
I built this set with the Daytons and can't be happier with them.
I also think they fit the same bolt pattern and they go on sale every now and then for $99 each.
Rated for 500 watts and 700 peaks and they do pump some amazing lows!
Gary
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-080
A few of us have tried these and I have not heard anyone say a bad thing about them.
I built this set with the Daytons and can't be happier with them.
I also think they fit the same bolt pattern and they go on sale every now and then for $99 each.
Rated for 500 watts and 700 peaks and they do pump some amazing lows!
Gary
gonzomeep
Super Member
I bought a pair of Model 19's about 6 months ago. I had always wanted a pair of them since I first heard them in the showroom in the mid 70's. Although it is a great sounding speaker, if I'm being truthful about the bottom line, the LF response was not very good. I used a near mint pair of fat-lip 416-8A's. Nice midbass, but below 60-75hz, not so good. The M19's are long gone.
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
A-7 is NOT a bass speaker box, it's a MID-BASS horn with a LF cutoff of 80-100 hz.
Some additional LF extension is provided from the massive amount of bass reflex area, but it's really not on par with the output of the horn unless you happen to hit on a setup and room that plays nice with them.
IMO the 416, particularly the ferrite 416-8C is probably the worst choice for a woofer in an A7 box where Altec woofers are concerned.
The 421-8H, or 421-8LF quite admirably outperform the 416 in a horn, the ultimate Altec horn driver is the 515, and you will not install a better woofer in a horn box.
The Dayton pro woofer is just one of many good possibilities for a replacement woofer, there are literally hundreds that will work. The most ideal replacements will have a Qts of less than .24 .
Read thru the threads on 19's at the Altec user's board and you'll discover that late model 19's using 416-8C have unsatisfactory bass response among most owners who have heard the earlier alnico versions.
The 416 has a rather loose/floppy suspension and damping, with too small of a motor to damp/control it properly in a big box........... 19 owners will tell you that room placement is critical in getting the sound "right".
I've owned all 3 versions of 416 and have used them in several different boxes and tunings including 19 clones.................. i no longer own any 416's, and i don't seek them or buy them when the opportunities arise, been there, done that.
I ultimately settled with JBL 2035's in my A7's as they offer the closest midbass "punch" to the 515, yet play well up to a higher XO which i prefer. The 2035 is a better "sounding" woofer than the 2225 or 2226, but has a lower power rating and 3 inch voice coil. The 2035 also has a ruler flat impedence curve in it's working range and doesn't require a zobel or smoothing of any kind.
Just my .02 y'all understand.............
Some additional LF extension is provided from the massive amount of bass reflex area, but it's really not on par with the output of the horn unless you happen to hit on a setup and room that plays nice with them.
IMO the 416, particularly the ferrite 416-8C is probably the worst choice for a woofer in an A7 box where Altec woofers are concerned.
The 421-8H, or 421-8LF quite admirably outperform the 416 in a horn, the ultimate Altec horn driver is the 515, and you will not install a better woofer in a horn box.
The Dayton pro woofer is just one of many good possibilities for a replacement woofer, there are literally hundreds that will work. The most ideal replacements will have a Qts of less than .24 .
Note the OP is dealing with A7's (VOTT).
Read thru the threads on 19's at the Altec user's board and you'll discover that late model 19's using 416-8C have unsatisfactory bass response among most owners who have heard the earlier alnico versions.
The 416 has a rather loose/floppy suspension and damping, with too small of a motor to damp/control it properly in a big box........... 19 owners will tell you that room placement is critical in getting the sound "right".
I've owned all 3 versions of 416 and have used them in several different boxes and tunings including 19 clones.................. i no longer own any 416's, and i don't seek them or buy them when the opportunities arise, been there, done that.
I ultimately settled with JBL 2035's in my A7's as they offer the closest midbass "punch" to the 515, yet play well up to a higher XO which i prefer. The 2035 is a better "sounding" woofer than the 2225 or 2226, but has a lower power rating and 3 inch voice coil. The 2035 also has a ruler flat impedence curve in it's working range and doesn't require a zobel or smoothing of any kind.
Just my .02 y'all understand.............
dnewma04
The Healer
www.aespeakers.com has some TD15M drivers that are as good of a large diameter woofer/midrange speaker as you can buy at any price. If you can sacrifice a db or two in sensitivity, the TD15X keeps that amazing midrange and adds real bass extension.
The Usher 15PA drivers appear to be good drivers, as well.
The Usher 15PA drivers appear to be good drivers, as well.
Billfort
Addicted Member
While I don't agree with bowtie's blanket dissing of the 416 woofer, I certainly do agree with the above statement.
I'm sure different woofers in the A-7 could make a difference but they horn load from 80-100Hz up so have a stepped response - anything below that is vented box loading and will be several db lower in level.
The best I ever heard A-7's was in a system where the bass was filled in below 80Hz with a well matched sub - problem is, that sub was a massive horn-loaded piece that made the A-7's look domestically friendly by comparison.
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Agreed, looks like Goldwood offers some good choices at an attractive pricepoint as well, they have a thing for making their woofers "look like" JBL's.
Agree here with Bowtie and Bill, if you want low bass you ain't a'gonna get it with a 825-828 box.
I dig 416 woofers and not because of their ability to do low bass but the gorgeous way in which they reproduce upper bass and midrange, IMO there's only one better driver in that range, the 515. Which by the way makes even less bass than a 416 when in a 825-828. The 414 12" is swell too.
Anyway if you want deep bass with 825-828s you gotta use a sub and it better be a big one that can track the dynamics of the VOT. When I had A5s I used a pair of JBL 4648s below 100hz. That gave me 4-15s. They were placed along a wall and EQed +6db at 30 hz. They kept up with the dynamics of the A5s and were flat to 25hz, measured.
I dig 416 woofers and not because of their ability to do low bass but the gorgeous way in which they reproduce upper bass and midrange, IMO there's only one better driver in that range, the 515. Which by the way makes even less bass than a 416 when in a 825-828. The 414 12" is swell too.
Anyway if you want deep bass with 825-828s you gotta use a sub and it better be a big one that can track the dynamics of the VOT. When I had A5s I used a pair of JBL 4648s below 100hz. That gave me 4-15s. They were placed along a wall and EQed +6db at 30 hz. They kept up with the dynamics of the A5s and were flat to 25hz, measured.
Attachments
I don't remember the thread but Dave Wojo has many A-7s and knows the ins and outs of these fine speakers.
I agree with the above and have never found the lows I like with them.
Dave on the other hand has worked extensively with them and could probably shed some light here and I do hope he jumps in. On his advice I bought the Daytons and am very happy with them but I don't use them in A-7 horn loaded boxes.
As for the 19s not having enough bottom with the 416-8B I really have to wonder if all systems were functioning correctly. In my own experience I have been both completely thrilled with 19s and completely dissatisfied but it always turns out to be a problem somewhere in the chain and not necessarily in the 19s themselves. On a good amp with all components working right a 19 can sound very, very good indeed.
I have 3 different pairs of 416, 8 ohm versions and have had them all in my 19clones. 416-8A 15", 416-8A 16", and 416-8B 16". All are fresh GPA rebuilds.
I like the 8Bs the very best in my speakers. Never tried a 416-8C or a 515.
Some say there is no difference but to my ears the 8B just seems to sound best.
Gary
I agree with the above and have never found the lows I like with them.
Dave on the other hand has worked extensively with them and could probably shed some light here and I do hope he jumps in. On his advice I bought the Daytons and am very happy with them but I don't use them in A-7 horn loaded boxes.
As for the 19s not having enough bottom with the 416-8B I really have to wonder if all systems were functioning correctly. In my own experience I have been both completely thrilled with 19s and completely dissatisfied but it always turns out to be a problem somewhere in the chain and not necessarily in the 19s themselves. On a good amp with all components working right a 19 can sound very, very good indeed.
I have 3 different pairs of 416, 8 ohm versions and have had them all in my 19clones. 416-8A 15", 416-8A 16", and 416-8B 16". All are fresh GPA rebuilds.
I like the 8Bs the very best in my speakers. Never tried a 416-8C or a 515.
Some say there is no difference but to my ears the 8B just seems to sound best.
Gary
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Apologies if it seems i was dissing the 416, my intent was merely the assertion that it is a poor choice for a woofer in any horn, or sound reinforcement application for that matter.
No argument from me that the 416 is indeed a "good" woofer, originally introduced as the 803, it's stood the test of time as 60 years later it's still in demand and being built new by GPA.
It's been discussed and proven in multiple threads on this forum that there now exists a 1 inch horn driver that at least as far as response curves are concerned, outperforms the 802-8G HF driver used in the model 19. Logic dictates, and i fully expect that we'll at some point be introduced to a bass driver/woofer with the same contrast of performance to the 416.
My only real "complaint" about 416's is their lack of mechanical damping when used in a large vented box................ I'm sure it's more than just coincidence that so many folks prefer big solid state amplification on their model 19's.
Just my .02, and not meant to be in any way argumentive or inflammatory.
dread31
Addicted Member
Thanks!
As always; Thanks a ton , my Brothers!
For now I think I'll dig out my Def Tech sub, and give that a whirl.
Maybe later, I'll get some Daytons. But the whole "Horn cuts off at 80-100hz"
thing makes sense to me. So, i'll try the sub first.
Brother Dave
"Without music, color turns to palor, home turns to catacomb, man turns to carcass."----------Edgar Allan Poe
As always; Thanks a ton , my Brothers!
For now I think I'll dig out my Def Tech sub, and give that a whirl.
Maybe later, I'll get some Daytons. But the whole "Horn cuts off at 80-100hz"
thing makes sense to me. So, i'll try the sub first.
Brother Dave
"Without music, color turns to palor, home turns to catacomb, man turns to carcass."----------Edgar Allan Poe
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Just be fairly warned that it takes a lot of sub and amplifier to (thanks to Tom Brennan for this quote) "track the dynamics" of the A7's. Also be warned that good sub bass at moderate A7 listening levels can be damaging to some structures.
I'm once again on the "build" for adequate subs myself which will be large volume DIY boxes tuned to 20hz using four 15 inch Emilar woofers. My last attempt was a pair of dual 18" subs, they could finally handle the input power and dynamics needed to play nice with A7's, but being of a more pro sound/sound reinforcement design they rolled off steeply below 38hz.
I find good linear sub bass to be very addictive and after living with it for a while i've become rather obsessed with getting it into my A7 system
macaltec
Metal Master
dread, aren't you in NC? I have A7's with the Dayton cast frame 15" woofer. When I bi-amp the speakers I can get some pretty amazing bass that leaves me with no desire to add a sub, but low level listening suffers. I also lined my cabs with a fiberglass type material (2") on the sides and back. I guess at the expense of efficiency????? I recently switched to a passive 800Hz Eminence crossover with Zobel network and an L-pad for the horn. While I like the sound very much I miss the bass that my Cornwalls provided. I talked to Bill H @ GPA and he told me that there would be no appreciable difference heard between the 421, 515 and 416 woofers when loaded in the A7 cabinet. You are welcome to come and have a listen. While the bass will not knock your socks off everything else is quite nice. I suspect you already know that though.
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/technical/1983-subs.htm
For max dynamics, build that box and tune for this driver:
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2242.pdf
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/4645c.pdf
That gets you the TOTL Synthesis S1S sub, basically:
http://www.jblsynthesis.com/product...rod=S1S-EX&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical Sheet/S1S-EX ts.pdf
[No, I've never built any S1S subs, but I'm on the lookout for a pair of the drivers.]
******
Also, lean on Tom Danley to tell us all how to fix A7.... :yes:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/index.htm
He used JBL 2226(H), but largely because the client already had them:
"I also use a couple BMS drivers, they (like B&C) make some very good drivers at a good price.
Last summer I rebuilt a pair of Altec A-7’s for a friend, I replaced the Altec Driver with a BMS 4550 and not only was it more sensitive, had flatter response but it went out an entire octave higher "flat".
I used a JBL 2226 for the low range (normally I shun expensive drivers except he had them and it seemed appropriate to have at least something "Lansing" in it) and re-tuned the box and the end product had a 2+ octave wider bandwidth than the original with several hundreds of degrees less phase shift through crossover. to boot.
I took pictures and intend eventually to do a DIY article because when they were done the they sounded wonderful...."
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=82503&highlight=BMS+4550&r=&session=
For max dynamics, build that box and tune for this driver:
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2242.pdf
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/4645c.pdf
That gets you the TOTL Synthesis S1S sub, basically:
http://www.jblsynthesis.com/product...rod=S1S-EX&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical Sheet/S1S-EX ts.pdf
[No, I've never built any S1S subs, but I'm on the lookout for a pair of the drivers.]
******
Also, lean on Tom Danley to tell us all how to fix A7.... :yes:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/index.htm
He used JBL 2226(H), but largely because the client already had them:
"I also use a couple BMS drivers, they (like B&C) make some very good drivers at a good price.
Last summer I rebuilt a pair of Altec A-7’s for a friend, I replaced the Altec Driver with a BMS 4550 and not only was it more sensitive, had flatter response but it went out an entire octave higher "flat".
I used a JBL 2226 for the low range (normally I shun expensive drivers except he had them and it seemed appropriate to have at least something "Lansing" in it) and re-tuned the box and the end product had a 2+ octave wider bandwidth than the original with several hundreds of degrees less phase shift through crossover. to boot.
I took pictures and intend eventually to do a DIY article because when they were done the they sounded wonderful...."
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=82503&highlight=BMS+4550&r=&session=
dread31
Addicted Member
Not to stir the pot any, but, I did pick-up a pair of 416-8C's with the nicer magnets and they produce a ton of bass in my A7 cabs, these particular 416-8C's have the nice magnet assemblies, not the ones with crummy looking magnet and cheap sticker on them, maybe others have condemned the later model 8C's that have the less desireable motors on them. Some day I'll mount up the 416-8A's, B's, and C's for a shoot-out and see what's best in the A7 and M19 cabs. I've had many recones done by GPA but I still feel the compliance is tighter than original, maybe they require a long break-in period? I heard Bill is making alnico magnet woofers again, I wonder if they'll be called 515B's??? :scratch2:
The GPA 515-8LF ferrites;
The nicer 416-8C motor;
The OTHER motors;
The GPA 515-8LF ferrites;
The nicer 416-8C motor;
The OTHER motors;
