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Amplifier Distortion, DC-Offset, and You!

I get 105mV on the right and -35mV on the left at the speaker terminals.

I opened it up and checked it at the test posts where the SM says to check and they are 31 and -31.

It appears there is something amiss.

What is amiss is it appears that you are confusing two entirely different measurements, output transistor bias and DC offset at the speaker terminals. Both the measurements and the adjustments for each are entirely separate matters.

Those internal test points are in all probability the bias test points, NOT DC offset.

The face plate needs to be removed to adjust the bias.
What is the bias spec in the service manual? If the numbers you quoted above (31 / -31) are within spec, that's likely your bias adjustment and it doesn't need to be touched.

I don't know your unit. It may or may not have adjustment for DC offset. The service manual will detail it if there is one. If not, it can be adjusted by careful replacement of certain components.
 
Yes thank you.

I realize this now.

I got confused reading other forum posts about this unit. As well as mixed up a bit with another unit I have acquired that mentions measuring from test posts or speaker terminals.

Bias spec is 0 as well as DC offset.

Both can be adjusted. But the DC offset trimmer is behind the front panel. These levers are delicate and most units ive seen are missing one or many.
 
EchoWars posted this over 20 years ago, and it’s STILL helping folks! Wish he were still posting…
I just finished work on an Audio Reflex AR625 that I picked up at an auction that had acceptable but higher dc offset than I wanted - 45-50mV on Rch, and ok 25mV on Lch. Replaced a few caps and resistors with no change. After replacing the differential transistor pair with perfectly matched ksc1845s the improvement was actually noticeable on FM with headphones on DBT and both channels are at 0-3mV. Great thread, very helpful and happy to get the receiver in shape that I would be confident in re-selling it now.
 
Time for one of those long, boring semi-technical posts that no one here reads...

As a few of you know, I bought a rare Kenwood 700M amplifier a few weeks ago on eBay. It arrived with a weak channel which was taken care of by replacing a bypass cap. Since then, I have gone through the entire amp and replaced all the electrolytic capacitors with the exception of the big power supply caps (not that expensive...maybe $20 in caps).

The previous owner described the amp as 'perfect' sounding, and compared with the big Mac's and Krell's and such. Before buying it, he described his current system which was quite high-end. I assumed that since he owned expensive equipment that he knew what he was listening to.
:withstpd:

Got the amp back together today (parts finally in), and fired it up with my small Dynaudio's (can't use the Heil/Dynaudio's for this, as they are bi-amped). Ummm...it sounded like ass. OK, it didn't always sound like ass, but at low volume levels it was obvious that something was wrong. I had a pretty good idea what was going on, so I grabbed my meter. Sure enough, there was 100mV of DC offset in the left channel, and almost 250mV (!!!) in the right! 250mV is almost enough for the protection circuitry to kick in!! Not good. I pulled the driver boards out and replaced the amp input differential pairs for both channels with new Zetex HG PNP's ($5 in transistors, no biggie). DC offset is now about 12mV in both channels. An input pair being as unbalanced as the Kenwood was when it arrived probably generates 10x the distortion as a properly balanced pair, especially at low volume. If you would like to read more about the benefits of a balanced differential pair, read here.

OK, sit down for another listen. NOW we're cookin'!! Amazing night and day difference. I can honestly say that it is without a doubt the nicest amp I have ever listened to, and there have been more than a few that impressed me. The bottom end on this thing is as clear as spring water, and it has an openess that is difficult to describe. As for power, my dummy loads cannot take the power output of this thing, but I can crank it for 10-15 seconds without destroying them. Left channel - 218W before clip, right channel - 220W, this into 8-ohms. Totally cool!! I just have never heard bass like this...wow...

Bottom line...if you expect to hear great sound, you just might...regardless of the reality. The guy I bought this from was well-meaning, but did not know how to listen subjectively. His new spendy amps could be performing horribly, and his expectations of what he felt he was supposed to hear would rule out anything to the contrary.

Your own subjectivity could be suffering too, so give yourself a reality-check.

As a semi-poll, I'd like to see those on this board whip out their multimeters and take a look at the DC that is being presented to the speakers. This means..

1. Speakers disconnected (or connect the meter to the 'B' speakers and set the front panel speaker control accordingly)
2. Input set to an unusued position (not Phono)
3. Volume control at minimum.
4. Balance in center
5. Tone controls either defeated or set to mid position
6. Set your meter to read DC, and set to a low scale (300mV scale is common) Connect directly to the Pos and Neg of the speaker terminals
7. Give the amp 10 minutes to settle. Report back...I'd like to see how healthy all these old amps are.

If you read:

0 - 15mV: Damn good!! If you read '0V', you may have a capacitor output, or your meter is set wrong

16mV - 50mV: An acceptable value, especially at the lower end of this range. 2nd harmonic distortion is probably twice to four times what manufacturer's spec calls for at higher frequencies. Probably not audible, as the distortion is mostly in the upper octaves. At the upper end of this range I begin to raise an eyebrow. :saywhat:

50 - 85mV: Something is certainly amiss, and while this is not enough to put your speakers or equipment in jeopardy, the amp is running nowhere near where it should. I'd venture to guess that most of the DC-coupled amps that are in use by forum members here fall into this range.

100mV to ?: A high enough voltage will cause the DC protection to kick in. This happens at a level determined by the designer, but is usually equivalent to about a diode drop (600mV)or so. Needless to say, if you are listening to an amp with 100mV or more of DC offset, you have no idea what the amp really is supposed to sound like. Indeed, some amps without a differential input are actually designed to have a bit of DC at the outputs, but this is triple-rare, and I don't think anyone here owns one. (in my book it's piss-poor design, but if you can sell it WTH..)

Soooooo...go grab a meter and tell me what you find...
Marantz 2270. 15.8 rt....9.3 lt. Removed from service do to loud scary POP noises.
 
Inexpensive Hitachi receiver from early 80's, model SR-5010. Has no trimpots to adjust DC offset, so have to break out the soldering iron.

Before:
Left channel: -56.8mv
Right channel: -33.4mv

After replacing both transistor differential pairs:
Left channel: -13.5mv
Right channel: -6.2mv

I think doing this was worthwhile! The original transistor pairs were 2SC2389. I replaced them with KSC1845FTA, and they seem to work just fine. I didn't bother matching the new pairs of transistors. Thanks for keeping this thread going for 20+ years!
 
My repair guy has gave it up so Im looking for a direction on the loud scary pop noise. 15.8/9.3
When does it pop? Is it just random? I'm no expert, but one of my amps would pop and crack especially until warmed up. Then it would loudly pop and also trip the protection circuitry when I lightly tapped the circuit board (with a wooden pencil) around where the power transistors are mounted. So the issue appeared out to be broken solder connections which are really hard to see. I retouched all the solder connections with my soldering iron and this fixed my problem.
 
When does it pop? Is it just random? I'm no expert, but one of my amps would pop and crack especially until warmed up. Then it would loudly pop and also trip the protection circuitry when I lightly tapped the circuit board (with a wooden pencil) around where the power transistors are mounted. So the issue appeared out to be broken solder connections which are really hard to see. I retouched all the solder connections with my soldering iron and this fixed my problem.
Before you go attempting to get your amplifier to make "pop" noises, make sure you have cheap speakers attached first! I don't want to be responsible for ruining anyone's good speakers.
 
Might as well keep the thread alive after 20+ years!

McIntosh MC-7200

Left is 27.4mv
Right is 13.2mv

No audible distortion but not sure with the MC-7200 if this is out of spec being a NON autoformer design. Ideas and thoughts?
 
Might as well keep the thread alive after 20+ years!

McIntosh MC-7200

Left is 27.4mv
Right is 13.2mv

No audible distortion but not sure with the MC-7200 if this is out of spec being a NON autoformer design. Ideas and thoughts?

It is certainly "out of spec"...but the difference from spec is so small as to be virtually irrelevant.

The MC-7200 does not use autoformers? Are you sure about that?
 
Thanks for responding.
It is certainly "out of spec"...but the difference from spec is so small as to be virtually irrelevant.

The MC-7200 does not use autoformers? Are you sure about that?
I might be mistaken but the MC-7200 specs as DC coupled amp for 4 to 8 ohms. One of the few that McIntosh made. Since this is the only model I've ever owned, I understood it to not have the autotransformer output. But I'm ready to learn!
 
For those with a MC7200..... my tech called McIntosh and was advised that on this design, there is no adjustment trim pot for DC Offset, only for bias. Verified with the service manual. McIntosh said these readings are in line and nothing to worry about. Now, back to your regular programing!
 
Picked up a Sansui 9090 receiver. Dusted out. Everything seems functional. Sounds good. Checked the DC offset. Both channels were a bit high, over .100. So adjusted left channel got to .001 and stable. Got right channel down to almost .001 but would not settle. Goes up to about .040 to a little under -.010. Suggestions?
 
Picked up a Sansui 9090 receiver. Dusted out. Everything seems functional. Sounds good. Checked the DC offset. Both channels were a bit high, over .100. So adjusted left channel got to .001 and stable. Got right channel down to almost .001 but would not settle. Goes up to about .040 to a little under -.010. Suggestions?
If your DMM is set correctly, those measurments are so low as to not matter. As a guide, above 50mV is a concern, not .50mV. If those are your actual readings, sit back and enjoy!
 
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If your DMM is set correctly, those measurments are so low as to not matter. As a guide, above 50mV is a concern, not .50mV. If those are your actual readings, sit back and enjoy!
I usually switch between 2, 20 and sometimes 200 to compare them. Where should I set it?
 
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