Thomas_AA
Well-Known Member
Quite clever.
Antiskate force , what is yours
- Thread starter Sleiven
- Start date
ripblade
Addicted Member
@Sleiven, Peter is not using angle, but length instead as they are related: Longer arms require less offset for a particular set of nulls; these, I believe, are for Lofgren A. I guess he believes more people know the length of their arms than they do the angle, or that the choice of alignment is less significant.
That diagram might be on his website. It's been so long since I downloaded it I don't recall wherefrom.
That diagram might be on his website. It's been so long since I downloaded it I don't recall wherefrom.
Aha.. the skating force is U*VTF* Sin( offset angle + tracking angle error) .U is friction factor, VTF is tracking weight
I guess his 1/4 =0,25 is related to the U and VTF then. Still don’t get it fully , but
Simplified we can ignore tracking angle error. And since longer arm have lower offset angle the required antiskating force becomes less. So the table is not for a constant antiskate force ,….but vary with length/offset angle of arm
I guess his 1/4 =0,25 is related to the U and VTF then. Still don’t get it fully , but
Simplified we can ignore tracking angle error. And since longer arm have lower offset angle the required antiskating force becomes less. So the table is not for a constant antiskate force ,….but vary with length/offset angle of arm
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My PL-41 didn’t have it either. My AR-XA doesn’t have any provision other than a slight twist and loop of the wiring. Neither of the arms on my current turntable have it, and again, I don’t miss it. My main cartridge is a Denon DL103 tracking at 2.5g on an ATP 12T. It makes beautiful music and tracks beautifully with no sense that the rock is favoring one side of the groove. I have owned turntables/tonearms with AS and my last four tonearms didn’t/don’t have AS, yet delivered better sound so I don’t see the point.We need an option for "Zero" or "None". My 1968 Pioneer PL-41 doesn't have anti-skate.
The points are:
1. avoid uneven wear and shorter life of stylus
2.even performance in both channels,
3. Better tracking ( 20-25% improvement.
Somethings can have larger impact than AS such as Azimuth . My experience in that when Azimuth is off both tracking and reproduction in general suffers.
1. avoid uneven wear and shorter life of stylus
2.even performance in both channels,
3. Better tracking ( 20-25% improvement.
Somethings can have larger impact than AS such as Azimuth . My experience in that when Azimuth is off both tracking and reproduction in general suffers.
"Usually, most folks use far too much antiskating, as evidenced by the thousands of cartridges I have rebuilt over the last 40+ years – as evidenced by observation of the outer edge (right channel) of the diamond to be worn far more than the inner, or left channel."
I noticed in an earlier post that you followed Soundsmith's advice to back off antiskate a bit from what a test record would suggest. I don't own a test record, but I do use Soundsmith's recommended procedure for setting anti-skate as described in the article linked to above. I read a rule of thumb in the manufacturer's comments in a Sumiko cartridge review that suggested setting an antiskate number that is 2/3 of the vtf. This happened to exactly match what I got from the Soundsmith procedure with my Rega, but was way too high with an AT-LP120XUSB turntable where the dial needed to be set at 0.9 for a Sumiko Oyster tracking at 2.3 grams.
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Harry Weisfeld heard better sound when no antiskate mechanism was used and tracking force was kept near the manufacturer's suggested maximum vtf, but he did acknowledge the shorter stylus life, replacing the stylus in his M97xE every 500 hours rather than the up to 800 hours suggested by Shure. For him, the better sound was worth the reduced stylus life. My turntables have antiskate devices, and my ears don't hear a difference between zero antiskate and the reduced antiskate setting suggested by Soundsmith and Sumiko (that I mentioned in a post above), so I go ahead and use it.
Blackdog61 is hearing even performance without the need for antiskate.
Tracking can be just as good without antiskate by simply increasing tracking force a bit. Edgar Villchur referenced a study by F. V. Hunt when he wrote, "In short, the beginning and the end of the virtue of anti-skating compensation is that it decreases by a small amount the stylus force required for proper tracing. Hunt's analysis indicates the range of this decrease as between 7 and 19 per cent, the lower figure applying to the better-designed arms of low inertial mass and greater length. Side-thrust compensation does not change the final performance." Villchur rigged an antiskate device for the arm in his AR turntable, and found that without antiskate he needed to increase tracking force from 1 5/16 grams to 1 1/2 grams to get the same distortion-free performance.
I like your poll about the actual antiskate force in use with the dial set to 2. I think I still have a digital stylus force gauge around here; I'll see if I can locate it and add to the data.
Edit: I found my scale, and it read .62 grams at an antiskate setting of 2 on an AT-LP120XUSB. Grossly high, and maybe my cheap scale isn't working well for this, but maybe not surprising since I had the antiskate at 0.5 on the dial following Soundsmith's method for setting antiskate for the VM95C tracking at 2.1 grams. If my scale is accurate, This AT, a different sample than the one I mentioned in the post above, must be calibrated even worse than the one I had before. It jumps a lot at low settings, measuring above .3 before the dial even got to 1. I'm thinking about a U-Turn Orbit, which has a fixed antiskate of .25 grams, so I used my scale to set that just to see how I like it, and I only needed to move the dial to 0.6. Oh well, that's the beauty of the Soundsmith method--you adjust the antiskate to get a particular movement of the arm in the runout area, and it really doesn't matter what number the dial is set to.
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Good to hear I’m not the only one. I’m also running a Denon 103, re-bodied by Zu on a fairly heavy Ortofon LH-9000 headshell at about 2.5g. Sounds great to me.
I do try to get azimuth set up the best I can. I use a Dewalt laser level to get it as close as possible (without going crazy). At some point I have to stop obsessing over turntable setup and just play some music. If I wanted perfect, I’d fire up the CD player.
ripblade
Addicted Member
I heard the same effect with my Schiit Sol, so the use of AS might affect unipivots audibly more than regular arms. I was able to design one for the Sol (also a unipivot) that doesn't negatively affect sound but it's not as convenient to use or set, so it is possible to have transparent AS if it's done properly.
Well, my linear tables don't matter and my JVC with active tracking/anti-skate does it on its own with algorithms and feedback circuitry.
For spring based anti-skate tables I'd figure that the original calibration (number corresponding to tracking force) would be off and I'd go with the left-right output comparison from a test or reference record (wondering if there is an inexpensive reference option since most people don't have old Radio Shack and whatnot reference records).
Wondering if there's a way to measure stylus lateral deflection/offset with active electronics (turn cartridge into a sensor)?
Interesting but I've got too much other crap to do eh?
For spring based anti-skate tables I'd figure that the original calibration (number corresponding to tracking force) would be off and I'd go with the left-right output comparison from a test or reference record (wondering if there is an inexpensive reference option since most people don't have old Radio Shack and whatnot reference records).
Wondering if there's a way to measure stylus lateral deflection/offset with active electronics (turn cartridge into a sensor)?
Interesting but I've got too much other crap to do eh?
Thomas_AA
Well-Known Member
There was already a sugeestion in the thread which I have not tried yet but interesting.
Deflection of a stylus from cue up to cue down requires a good loupe or microscope. Going the other way, from cue down to up would result in a lateral sudden movement if the stylus is deflected in one or the other way. If not there would be no lateral movment.
This would in theory be very sensitive method. Will try it with measurements and be back.
The deflection would be 0.05mm according to some sources can anyone se that?Totally swamped by record eccentricity I think
Thomas_AA
Well-Known Member
With a microscope yes, but measurements could be another. If perfect, cueing up from a groove should give no lateral signal. Will do some tests.
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
My retired since 1982, B&O 4002 linear doesn`t have antiskating concerns, unless the lead in servo circuit malfunctions in some way.
Never had any playing issues owning 3 starting in 1977 (2 purchased used & one new.
Never had any playing issues owning 3 starting in 1977 (2 purchased used & one new.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
The reason I have a Rabco linear arm on my Thorens TT is because the MC cartridges at the time didn't track very well using a pivoting arms at the recommended 2.0 gram pressure by Ortofon. I didn't know at the time Europeans and British users were tracking anywhere from 3 to 4 grams to prevent mis tracking. I tried a linear arm at work and notice a significant improvement and why I removed the SME MK II arm back in the middle 70's. The linear arm made a significant difference when tracking challenging LP's especially the famous Telarc 1812 Overture LP. The results weren't perfect but at least the needle didn't hop out of the groove as when using a pivoting tone arm.
Today I am using modern Dynavector Mc coil cartridges whether using a linear arm on my Thorens or Fat Boy pivoting arm on my Mark Levinson/ VPI turntable I have never experienced any sign of mis tracking.at a 2 gram pressure with either cartridge or arm.
Today I am using modern Dynavector Mc coil cartridges whether using a linear arm on my Thorens or Fat Boy pivoting arm on my Mark Levinson/ VPI turntable I have never experienced any sign of mis tracking.at a 2 gram pressure with either cartridge or arm.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Retipping I can tell who does not have enough amateur and who has too much.
One micro ridge ( not enough anti skate) had one ridge gone and the other was fine.
Your stylus last a lot longer with the correct anti skate.
Chris
doctor fuse
Super Member
A silly question: what exactly do you mean by “didn’t track very well”? Pops and clicks? Groove noise? Sibilance? Transient distortion? Skipping?