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anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

kels83 said:
Found what looks to be a branded s8087rd needle recently. The cantilever has a kink but she's very pretty and plays well! I'm quite surprised at how tapered the cantilever is for a conical.

Side note, I have been collecting empires over the last 1.5 years or so. They are still quite available with some hunting. The needle is picture above my empire stack. I didn't have any of these 2 years ago. If anyone would like some detailed pics, I'll do my best without opening packages. View attachment 3709011View attachment 3709012View attachment 3709014View attachment 3709015
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That's an impressive needle collection. I've been collecting needles like those since around 2018 but only have maybe half of that. The needle in the first picture looks more like an 888SE needle (232-sde). There was a lower-priced special-value-version of the 888-SE released in 1967 or so, and it featured that black grip and purple lettering as seen in the picture versus the usual light blue grip. Should be a .3x.7 bonded elliptical diamond. I was given a used one on its original 888SE body with black plastic mounting bracket years ago. The needle was quite worn but it has a straight cantilever and still plays well despite sagging quite a bit. It was that hard-hitting, dynamic high-output sound that got me hooked on these old Empires in the beginning. There is a link somewhere in this thread to an old magazine ad showing the special value 888SE and maybe the 808E as well.
Worth looking up.
 
Apologies for missing this until now:
rudolfo said:
So going back to your 2000X discussion. As I look more into its replacement stylus and reading the ohms is about 450.
Can I use the similar shank 2000E III stylus .3 x .7 diamond elliptical? with the preamp settings of 47k Load and 45 db Gain?
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The 2000E and 2000X bodies are electrically different, but it's one of those "if you can hear it with your system, it may or may not be important to you, because the difference is in the top two octaves (~5kHz to 20kHz) of the audio spectrum" things. But as Jeannot points out, mechanically there's no difference. You can do the "pop and swap" with impunity.

Don't be afraid to try any combination that presents itself. There are differences that are significant.. and then there are all the other differences. The top octaves-- indeed the whole spectrum-- can be manipulated in many ways, especially now.
 
wualta said:
Don't be afraid to try any combination that presents itself. There are differences that are significant.. and then there are all the other differences. The top octaves-- indeed the whole spectrum-- can be manipulated in many ways, especially now.
Click to expand...
Wiser words were never spoken..........and you may just find your own "Lost Chord"

In Search Of

"The Lost Chord" is an 1877 song by Arthur Sullivan, based on a poem by Adelaide Anne Procter, symbolizing a fleeting moment of perfect harmony, peace, or spiritual connection in a chaotic life. It represents unattainable perfection, profound beauty, or a lost memory that can only be found again in heaven.
 
wualta said:
Apologies for missing this until now:

The 2000E and 2000X bodies are electrically different, but it's one of those "if you can hear it with your system, it may or may not be important to you, because the difference is in the top two octaves (~5kHz to 20kHz) of the audio spectrum" things. But as Jeannot points out, mechanically there's no difference. You can do the "pop and swap" with impunity.

Don't be afraid to try any combination that presents itself. There are differences that are significant.. and then there are all the other differences. The top octaves-- indeed the whole spectrum-- can be manipulated in many ways, especially now.
Click to expand...
Thank You... :beerchug:
 
rread13 said:
The Silver one is (like) new, sounds fantastic, I swapped out the Silver to the Translucent Yellow and playing the same album is again fantastic! Three styli, this should last me a long time. I owe you a beer, you discovered the clone. Thanks a ton!

Edit/Update: I had a major blow out with my Translucent Yellow stylus, it refused to come out of the cartridge body. The plastic front separated from the shaft, the shaft was extremely tight fitting and the two came apart. Sadly this once great sounding stylus is no more. The cantilever broke off and the shaft had to be extracted with pliers and collapsed/crushed at the nose when attempting to get a 'grip' on it.

All this happened from me getting an arm/wand from one of the Harman Kardon ST-7 tables I own, this one was my parts table that I decided to sell off to a fellow AK member here for his need to repair one or two of his own tables he had bought but unable to use do to very careless Ebay sellers very poor packing efforts.

Trying to help him out I cost myself this stylus. In hind site it would have likely happened anyway because it refused to come out "peacefully". I will be ordering another from Gary at TVOM again but this next time will stick to the Silver one, this is the original color and it's snug but not ridiculously tight like the Yellow one.
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Going back to the Gary 4329-DET. So basically all the colors of silver, gold and trans amber are all built and pretty much sounds the same?
Thanks...
 
rudolfo said:
Going back to the Gary 4329-DET. So basically all the colors of silver, gold and trans amber are all built and pretty much sounds the same? Thanks...
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That's been my experience and was the test result of the German magazine HiFi Stereophonie in the March 1978 issue (2000Z and blue 2000T). But let's hear from others. There are always variations in production, especially after 50 years.

In reference to rread's experience, that clear-yellow plastic played the same trick on other makes of styli too. One example is the Onkyo DN-25 Shibata for the Excel ES-70EX4.
 
rudolfo said:
Going back to the Gary 4329-DET. So basically all the colors of silver, gold and trans amber are all built and pretty much sounds the same?
Thanks...
Click to expand...

In my experience, the colors silver, gold, metallic blue all seem to be more or less the same with the main difference being the suspension and ride height being the biggest difference. Haven’t used any of my Empire mi carts (or any others) in awhile. A used VPI Scout found its way into my system and after I mounted a Yamaha MC-3 to it and the detail can’t be topped. All other tables and carts have been sold off. Keeping one 2000z clone and perhaps two of the styli. Maybe one gold and one silver?
 
Picked up a plastic Marantz 6025 belt drive table for a good price a couple of days ago, mostly because it sported a 1000ZE/X with an original Empire stylus - in decent condition!

I now have the cartridge mounted on a nice Lenco L75/S and it sounds fantastic! I know the Jelco arm is a bit heavy for the cartridge’s compliance rating of 35. Resonant frequency works out on paper and with the HiFi News test LP at around 5.5-6Hz, which is not great for warps. But I have a DIY fluid damper on the arm, and it plays slightly warped records no problem (it helps that I use a Nagaoka clamp to flatten warped records, thanks to the Lenco’s 1 degree dished platter).

I might sell the Marantz at around the same price I bought it for, with a cartridge I don’t like as much on it, and then this Empire will be a freebie! :D
 
Let us know if you hear a difference.
When testing a DIY damper, you can mount a heavy-but-hypercompliant cartridge like ADC's 10E Mk IV and watch for cantilever movement relative to the cartridge body when playing a record with a mild warp. Another way of checking is to use ported speakers, turn off any "rumble" filter, and watch for woofer wobble that indicates the speaker's trying (and failing) to reproduce infrasonic bass.
 
wualta said:
Let us know if you hear a difference.
When testing a DIY damper, you can mount a heavy-but-hypercompliant cartridge like ADC's 10E Mk IV and watch for cantilever movement relative to the cartridge body when playing a record with a mild warp. Another way of checking is to use ported speakers, turn off any "rumble" filter, and watch for woofer wobble that indicates the speaker's trying (and failing) to reproduce infrasonic bass.
Click to expand...

I use the HiFi News Test LP lateral resonance test track. The frequency remains the same, but the wobble is much reduced.
 
Had a spare cart that I couldn't identify for some time. After lots of searching, one forum had a pic that looked identical and suggested an empire s245e stylus. Low and behold, i had an extra, tried it, and it fit! The mH read similar as well. Except for the paint and then product number, the carts are physically identical. But the silver unlabeled one says "Made in Japan", which makes me believe the 245e was a clone from a different company. It looks very similar to the Sumiko Oyster and an Acutex cart I acquired, but the plastic stylus bodies dont quite fit. Does anyone have knowledge of the Empire 245e cart?

Pictured from top to bottom are 1) Empire 245e, 2) Unlabeled "Made in Japan" cart fitted with a 245e stylus, 3) Sumiko Oyster, 4) Acutex M207IIE "standard body" (i understand this is a less common body, but it looks very similar and it is, in fact, labeled m207IIe).4234.jpg
 
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I don't have the 140C/245E cartridge as such, but I do have a variant (no gold on the pins) of your silver-bodied clone, which was sold under several names. Mine was claimed to be a Marantz, and it is, with several names for the same cartridge+stylus. I decided mine is a CT-300 with a conical 792-D7 stylus. It's also a Sharp, Toshiba, Teledyne and Unitra, along with an IM variant branded as Omega. I have no idea which Japanese OEM made it.
I recommend the ruby red 246-DEX nude elliptical for your Oyster even though there's an inductance mismatch that will elevate the high treble. Tracks at 1.25g.
#245 E #140 C
 
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wualta said:
I don't have the 140C/245E cartridge as such, but I do have a variant (no gold on the pins) of your silver-bodied clone, which was sold under several names, but mine was claimed to be a Marantz, and it is, with several names for the same cartridge+stylus. I decided mine is a CT-300 with a conical 792-D7 stylus. It's also a Sharp, Toshiba, Teledyne and Unitra, along with an IM variant branded as Omega. I have no idea which Japanese OEM made it.

I recommend the ruby red 246-DEX nude elliptical for your Oyster even though there's an inductance mismatch that will elevate the high treble. Tracks at 1.25g.
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Thank you for the info and tips once again! I had a 792-D7 on hand and it does fit perfectly. The back of the package states the 792-D7 replaces Marantz ct-300, Toshiba n-292, hh scott 20sc, and Sharp sty-127. I'll give the 246 a try on the Oyster when I can find one.

The 245E does play very well. It was the second empire cart I picked up in my journey, so I am pleased to have a clone even if it may not be an empire design. I will probably mount the clone on a turntable that I refurbish and get it into a newbie's hands.
 
Thanks for the confirmation and the upthumbs on the 245E.

I doubt the citation of the Scott 20SC stylus (741-D7, meant for the Scott 21A SC) as suited to the Empire 140C/245E body, since the Scott is IM. The 20SC may fit but won't generate sound in an MM body like the Empire/Marantz/etc.

By the way, the 246-DEX is still available at tVOM, but as always, shop around.
#245 E #140 C
 
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