AT-LP120 and Technics Sl-1200 MK2

[Negotiableterms]

Not everyone wants to wake up at 6:00 AM on Saturday and go hit 20+ yard sales. Fewer yet have the people skills to interact with the folks out there and ask all the right questions that lead to the 'gems.' There's a few on this forum who've bought high end vintage turntables for twenty bucks or less (I've certainly bought my share) at thrifts and yard sales, but most guys are too lazy or unmotivated to do so.

It's pretty easy to whip out the credit card and buy that new shiny piano black slab-o-mdf "audiophile" turntable that's been hyped by the hack "reviewers" in the audiophool magazines. If a guy is doing nothing but spinning a handful of stereo LPs and there's little to no concern about accurate speed or performance, then those simple and cheap belt drives might sound perfectly fine and be acceptable.

The existence of Rega/Project/MMF doesn't prove anything other than there's a market for such product, for those who 'want it now', have the cash to spend, and don't want to bother with hunting down vintage gear.

People who want a brand new turntable are lazy or unmotivated? People who don't want a 40 year old turntable are lazy or unmotivated?

Belt drive turntables are incapable of accurate speed and incapable of accurate performance?

Your post is a shining example of the rude, disrespectful, insulting garbage that the moderation team is no longer going to tolerate.

Go away.

Oh, wait...I can fix this.

And fix it you did! Now, would all moderators please help out fixing all the rest of the 1200 fanboys, and fanboys of any kind that insist on shoving their narrow views down everyone's throat. I don't use vinyl at all and it's still distasteful. Fair warning to all fanboys: you'll either be quiet and respectful of others' choices, or gone permanently, as soon as we can manage it.

 

[arcorob]

Thank you Mods, Admins and

all folks who want to keep this place civil...

Really guys, 30 posts ago I thought I summarized good feelings, peace on earth, etc...and it didn't stick. It turned into another slugfest

And I wasn't even involved in it !!! LOL

 

[cafe latte]

You weren't there during the tests, so you have no idea if it sounded good or not. You're making an assumption based on your own preconceived notions and uninformed conclusions.

Not unimformed conclusions it is fact that the better the arm the better the cart will sound. The arm on a turntable as I said is the limiting factor to the carts performance. Even with the Technics the arm is the thing to mod or replace to get the best from the turntable. As I said I am sure the MC sounded ok on the LP120 but due to the arm on it no way could the cart perform at anything close to its best due to its ringing modes. If the arm is modded with internal damping or maybe the rubber rings which is an interesting mod as is the heatshrink but it is difficult to remove heatshrink tubing if you dont like the results though.
Regards
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

all folks who want to keep this place civil...

Really guys, 30 posts ago I thought I summarized good feelings, peace on earth, etc...and it didn't stick. It turned into another slugfest

And I wasn't even involved in it !!! LOL

I agree this is just a discussion on a forum about our hobby Technics, lp120 or something else this is about turntable not world domination.
Be happy
Chris

 

[grottyash]

Looks like there migh be something in the w&f debate, CL. I'll measure the file when back home, but it seems, if Gusten is correct, it is unsurprisingly not as good on the AT, though to what level is a different matter.

You might be interested to know the Technics measurements I've seen are worse than the specs - .065 and .04.

On a personal level I'm happy to see so much interest in the SL1200 - wondering now whether 500€ boxed, bought new,all accessories etc with about 20 hours on it isn't too little to ask

 

[cafe latte]

Thought I would tell you all about it as I have received many PM's and it might help other folks on what NOT TO DO. One of those "Uhh..that's not what I meant to do" that you learn from, never do again, and cause broken equipment.

Let me first say, I suffer form what I call productive OCD(positive spin). When I get on a roll or an interest, its never 20% or even 50%. Its 110% to exhaustion. All it takes is a trigger. That trigger was this thread. No ones fault but it put into mind about resonance, damping, etc.

Now did my DIY table need damping. Nope. It was one of the simplest made, designed for quiet and anti-resonance you can imagine. No rocket science, just the right stuff. The Dual EDS 500 motor, dead quiet and speed was so steady you would think it was PLL quarts locked. Arm that is oil damped and DESIGNED against resonance. But I got it into my head I should fill the hollow base with 25 lbs of clay. ALL 25lbs.

I setup my project 100% perfect(removed the silicone from the damping tray so it would not leak when I inverted the tables, etc. etc.)

Filled the base but the 10% error? I didn't protect the electronics. The motor board should have been protected instead of just try to avoid and didn't think encasing the wires would cause issues. Guess what ? Found out later wet clay DOES CONDUCT. Wet in the sense that it starts damp, then drys.

So see pictures below of what I did, but needless to say, after doing it and firing up, it wouldn't turn on. I think I got clay on the motor board. I tried uncover the wires on the table, redid those but no joy. Dead DIY.

Insult to injury ? 4 weeks ago after buy several dustcovers that did not fit, I bought a CUSTOM MADE cover that still wont arrive for another 8 weeks...uggg

The GOOD part. I am getting another Dual for the motor and electronics parts, the arm is untouched (but removed for safety), I will de-clay and rebuild...The DIY will rise again...LOL

Not good!! My worry would be the clay might attract moisture too. I dont know if the dry clay is going to be the best material for damping, but I am no expert on damping either. How heavy is it now with the dry clay? Have you thought about giving a bit more room for motor cooling?
Regards
Chris

 

[Mr. Lin]

And fix it you did! Now, would all moderators please help out fixing all the rest of the 1200 fanboys, and fanboys of any kind that insist on shoving their narrow views down everyone's throat.

With great pleasure.

 

[cafe latte]

Looks like there migh be something in the w&f debate, CL. I'll measure the file when back home, but it seems, if Gusten is correct, it is unsurprisingly not as good on the AT, though to what level is a different matter.

You might be interested to know the Technics measurements I've seen are worse than the specs - .065 and .04.

On a personal level I'm happy to see so much interest in the SL1200 - wondering now whether 500€ boxed, bought new,all accessories etc with about 20 hours on it isn't too little to ask

It is interesting what you said about the Technics wow and flutter. What I have read in the past is Technics need to be in tip top condition to get the best wow and flutter results, a worn bearing for example may increase things like for any turntable. Another thing to consider is when Hifi world for example measure wow and flutter is the test record is locked at the edge perfectly centered this is not really possible in a test we do here so we should try to ignore obvious wow from a possibly off center record for both turntables.
Regards
Chris

 

[ccvc]

The Technics is far less of a legend outside of forums than some would like to believe, especially in hi-fi/audio circles.

And yet. i remember a few years ago entering a room at the Montréal Hi-Fi show, and they had an SL-1200 at helm of a very nice (expensive) system.

The story doesn't tell how many heated arguments thes guys must have gotten into over the weekend regarding their ''odd' choice.

I know that this is the exeption and not the norm, but i just tought it was à propos with your post, and worth mentionning.

Also on display at the London Science Museum.

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10438138&wwwflag=2&imagepos=2

 

[Greyson]

Also on display at the London Science Museum.

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10438138&wwwflag=2&imagepos=2

The counterweights are on backwards.

 

[ccvc]

It is interesting what you said about the Technics wow and flutter. What I have read in the past is Technics need to be in tip top condition to get the best wow and flutter results, a worn bearing for example may increase things like for any turntable. Another thing to consider is when Hifi world for example measure wow and flutter is the test record is locked at the edge perfectly centered this is not really possible in a test we do here so we should try to ignore obvious wow from a possibly off center record for both turntables.
Regards
Chris

Yep, it's always a good idea to replace the 1200 spindle bearing. It's easy and inexpensive.

 

[Bigerik]

Also on display at the London Science Museum.

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10438138&wwwflag=2&imagepos=2

Just don't read the description...

 

[ccvc]

The counterweights are on backwards.

That's how DJ's do it, it's actually in the instructions for the Shure M44-7. I'm sure you know that Mr. Greyson, just posting for others who may not.

 

[ccvc]

Hmmm. That is not what I stated or what you asked.





I must say, you are one of the most unusual moderators, leave alone supermoderators on any forum I've been on.

I agree, thanks. I could not write that and not be threatened with banning.

Vote with your wallet.

 

[grottyash]

Having spent some time examining the AT I'd like to comment on a couple of things from Rob's first post.

It is a hefty deck in terms of weight, no question, but the base does look and feel plasticky. The cueing feels light and uncertain, whereas the Technics is precise and a pleasure to use - probably the best I've used in a turntable, including my current Clearaudio. The lid, too, seems a bit cheap. You would never mistake it for a Technics, although the arm looks pretty much exactly the same to me, but, at the price (259€) it ain't half bad.

Right next to it, at the same price, was an RP1. Totally different, minimalist design, but nicely finished. Then I lifted up the right side and almost sent the thing crashing off the stand. The materials are as light as a feather, and all the weight is on the left where the motor is. Arm looks a standard Rega, possibly better finished than I remember.

Were I buying, and if sound quality were equal I'd go for the Rega purely on its design. Like the Technics, the AT is brash, glitzy, and swarming with features I'd never use. Really, though, I wouldn't think either a bad choice, and certainly better than the sub 200€ decks next to them.

 

[gusten]

As it has been discussed here that suble differences disappear and might not be captured properly with a .wav file. This is not how I see it, IME very, very slight differences can be detected even if the components used are not the best there are. Here are two files, everything is exactly the same but one very small difference with the TT, very small.
gusten

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39225261/HAL.10.wav
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39225261/HAL.12.wav

 

[ccvc]

Have to agree with Frank that this whole thing re the LP 120 vs the SL1200 was nothing more than a disguised effort by the haters to belittle the SL1200. By the way I don't own a SL1200 if that matters.

Blatantly obvious at this point. I thought this type of thread was against the rules, evidently not. It might be time for me to rethink any future donations and subscriptions.

 

[dnewma04]

Dual 701 may have been first coreless, OEMed by Pabst IIRC.

Ah, right. Thanks.

 

[JohnVF]

Blatantly obvious at this point. I thought this type of thread was against the rules, evidently not. It might be time for me to rethink any future donations and subscriptions.

They're blind files that stand on their own. How is that a takedown? People were free to choose whichever they wanted. What some of us learned was that the AT was better than many of us assumed.

I'm never going to do the comparison between the SL-1200 and VPI. I don't want to deal with you guys.

 

[ccvc]

They're blind files that stand on their own. How is that a takedown? People were free to choose whichever they wanted. What some of us learned was that the AT was better than many of us assumed.

I'm never going to do the comparison between the SL-1200 and VPI. I don't want to deal with you guys.

Basically it calls into question whether or not people actually trust the files the OP posted. Hint: many don't, and it will continue to get worse as this thread progresses and the bias becomes more obvious. I'm guessing anything you post would be questioned too, since you're a self-proclamed 1200 hater.

No, I admit to having learned to hate the SL-1200 based upon a portion of their owners. I admit it. I'd soon ditch vinyl entirely than be associated with that table. It's come to represent everything that turns me off from playing records anymore. Relentless hype, arrogant fanboyism, unrealistic claims of superiority based on nothing but wishful thinking, that whole attitude of anybody spending less or more than me is an idiot. Yep, I'm fine never being in that crowd.

:thmbsp:

I'm not sure why a forum would want to alienate a large group of turntable enthusiasts, but it's happening.