Alfmonster
Active Member
Has anyone paired an Acoustic Research AR3 with a mac4100 or a MC225/MX110z combo? And if so, any thoughts regarding the pairing?
Audio Research AR3 with Mac4100 / MC225
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I did with the 4100 and it was a pretty good match. I like how they sound more with my MC2300, but it could certainly drive them adequately.
Never had the second set up, and my guess is that while it would probably sound ok(I bet more then a few folks did this back in the day) the amp would be a little light on power to allow the AR3 to perform at it's full potential.
Never had the second set up, and my guess is that while it would probably sound ok(I bet more then a few folks did this back in the day) the amp would be a little light on power to allow the AR3 to perform at it's full potential.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
From personal experience back in the 60's a MC 275 wasn't enough for the AR3. I use to put 3 or 4 AR-3a connected on a MC3500 to reproduce music for live dance and Ballet recitals. If larger auditoriums I used 8 AR-3a with two 3500's. 6 in the orchestra pit or 3 stacked on each side of the stage and one on each on each side facing the dancers so didn't have to wait for the reflected sound coming back making them dance a little behind the music. Les Sylphides, Aurora's Wedding, Ann Frank, Firebird, Sleeping beauty, Act III Don Quixote. and a few others I can't recall. I also did it with Bozaks biggest Column speakers and CS 4 woofer boxes. It was better sound but it took three of us to set up the system. To much like work. Wonder what ever happened to all those AR speakers. We pained them black and used black grill cloth. They were B stock from audio shows any way.
That's like a response from Microsoft Tech Support: accurate, but completely useless and unrelated to the question.
Alfmonster
Active Member
Thank you so much for your replies! @sberger It’s so interesting to hear that the AR3 responded positively to more power - my father has a pair of AR58s’s and they sounded quite good when we paired it with a mc2100. Before he had it paired with an older Denon Receiver. I imagine it would sound even better then with a 2205 or something.
@62caddy I think I’ll make use of the speaker selector switch and pair the AR3’s (if and when I get it) with the 4100 — which by the way I’ve been enjoying immensely. I use it every day - all day - whether it is the radio, tv, or music. I found it nice to just to listen to it all day - whether in the background or for music.
On a side note it’s also very freeing to be able to use it without worrying about burning through the tubes. As I’m learning more about tube rolling - the tubes are getting more expensive and rare on the 225/110z. Going even further off of topic - my MX110z (as you warned me) has been at the shop (4th time now) which makes it official that it has spent more time in the shop than I’ve had in my possession. Currently it’s due to a finicky selector switch causing some distortion on the left channel. Luckily I’ve been riding high on the warranty…but that free ride will end shortly.
@twiiii Its amazing to me that the speakers were used to simulate the orchestra - are they really that good? Gosh if the 275’s weren’t enough for it, it definitely won’t perform at its full potential with the 225. I read that the AR3 were used in a live testing which is what originally interested me. The ones I’m looking at seems to have been very well cared for and still has the original paper/cloth(?) surrounds and woofer as well as the original tweeters which are performing to spec. Have you heard the AR3 recently?
@SaturationPt - haha but it is accurate? The AR3’s can replicate that nuance of live orchestral performances as @twiiii was saying?
I can’t thank everyone enough for taking the time to respond. Many of those who responded have regularly and so graciously helped me from the beginnings of my journey - through what could’ve gone so horribly wrong. So thank you again for that.
@62caddy I think I’ll make use of the speaker selector switch and pair the AR3’s (if and when I get it) with the 4100 — which by the way I’ve been enjoying immensely. I use it every day - all day - whether it is the radio, tv, or music. I found it nice to just to listen to it all day - whether in the background or for music.
On a side note it’s also very freeing to be able to use it without worrying about burning through the tubes. As I’m learning more about tube rolling - the tubes are getting more expensive and rare on the 225/110z. Going even further off of topic - my MX110z (as you warned me) has been at the shop (4th time now) which makes it official that it has spent more time in the shop than I’ve had in my possession. Currently it’s due to a finicky selector switch causing some distortion on the left channel. Luckily I’ve been riding high on the warranty…but that free ride will end shortly.
@twiiii Its amazing to me that the speakers were used to simulate the orchestra - are they really that good? Gosh if the 275’s weren’t enough for it, it definitely won’t perform at its full potential with the 225. I read that the AR3 were used in a live testing which is what originally interested me. The ones I’m looking at seems to have been very well cared for and still has the original paper/cloth(?) surrounds and woofer as well as the original tweeters which are performing to spec. Have you heard the AR3 recently?
@SaturationPt - haha but it is accurate? The AR3’s can replicate that nuance of live orchestral performances as @twiiii was saying?
I can’t thank everyone enough for taking the time to respond. Many of those who responded have regularly and so graciously helped me from the beginnings of my journey - through what could’ve gone so horribly wrong. So thank you again for that.
I don't know, never was much of an AR fan.
It is my expectation that it is accurate, in its time and in its application. If you are filling a different space with different music using different equipment a half-century later the answer should be different.
An example might be a comment that my BIL made years back (he owns/owned businesses in commercial music/sound/video for around 45+ years at this point) that the only bet he ever lost on speakers was when he was told that the JBL 4312A was flat. They measured them during an installation and they were the "flattest speakers he had ever measured".
That would have been around 1980?
Here in 2021, we know SO MUCH more about directivity, phase shift/distortion, time alignment, breakup modes etc. and are able to accurately measure them that the 4312A is merely a cool old speaker that sounds good.
So in the context of 2021 and your living room is there any useable correlation? You decide.
Alfmonster
Active Member
that’s a beautiful point. I guess I won’t know until I know. And as of this point I’ll know in a month.
One thing really required of the 3's to bring them back to where they were originally is replacing caps(mostly recommended, although if they are early enough they may still have the original military grade oil caps in them which supposedly can last forever...they still should be checked for spec and leakage), redope(resealing) the woofer surround with special sealant available from AK member RoyC(and only use that sealant), inspect and at least clean the pots so that they work properly, and to me, the most important, having the mids and tweets rebuilt. This last step is one that most 3/3a owners are not aware of, and even when they meet spec they are still tired and can't possibly provide the output they did when new. Having them rebuilt by either RoyC or other member Chris is really the way to go. Their services are relatively inexpensive, and the difference between original drivers that seem to be working well, even after a restoration, and the rebuilt drivers is truly night and day. If there was one step to make these old speakers sound truly like they did when new, this is the one(redoping is super easy, though, and insures proper response from perhaps the most important driver of the AR3 so I would do that too).
There are threads all over AK that will provide guidance(member @GD70 has provided great advice and documentation with his own restorations), as well as this one for the similar AR3a on the Classic Speaker Pages, where AR experts abound: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/...ing_the_ar-3a/restoring_the_ar-3a_full_pd.pdf
There are threads all over AK that will provide guidance(member @GD70 has provided great advice and documentation with his own restorations), as well as this one for the similar AR3a on the Classic Speaker Pages, where AR experts abound: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/...ing_the_ar-3a/restoring_the_ar-3a_full_pd.pdf
Last summer went to audition a pair of AR9 in near mint condition- all recapped & refoamed by the AR-expert owner. These were the flattest responding speakers Julian Hirsch said he had ever measured at the time and gave them high marks (c 1980). I found them to be the most lifeless, limp and uninvolving speakers I'd ever heard. Also heard a number of other high end speakers with similar results. I've come to the realization that ruler flat response isn't for me.
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Alfmonster
Active Member
Thanks for the heads up in regards to the flat response characteristics of the AR speakers. I was planning on auditioning them before purchasing but perhaps I’ll try to audition them sooner so I can have a little time to think on them.
Alfmonster
Active Member
The classic speaker page - had no idea! So much information there.
Thanks for the very helpful information regarding the AR3’s, it’s restoration, and pointing to the people who can do them. I reached out to RoyC and will look into how much it will be so rebuild the tweeter, sealant, etc. Haven’t even bought them yet and the costs are adding up!
The costs are quite small, IMO, but obviously you have to judge for yourself. Whatever you put into a pair of AR3's will not only come back to reward you from a listening standpoint, but definitely from a resell one, too. AR3's retain their value, and appreciate at that, much in the same way as the best vintage McIntosh does. They will always be in demand worldwide and the prices are not coming down. Keeping as much as possible original but with restoration will only add to their value.
And BTW, I do not consider the 3's a flat speaker. I have JBL studio monitors that are considered very flat, and yes they are somewhat dry, which is why I enjoy stacking them with other JBL's that have more color. But the 3's offer a combination of richness through the 12", and sparkle through the tweeter(when rebuilt properly) that I've found other speakers have difficulty in matching. An extremely enjoyable speaker with all music.
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Update: Pairing my 3's with my MC225 now(the horror!!! 
)...In my medium sized room, with the 3's crammed into a corner, the combo is stunningly sweet. With this set up, I listen to mostly jazz combo's and chamber music duo's, trio's and quartets. If I want to rock out, I have bigger amps and speakers I can do that with. But for this more polite music, this combo works beautifully.
)...In my medium sized room, with the 3's crammed into a corner, the combo is stunningly sweet. With this set up, I listen to mostly jazz combo's and chamber music duo's, trio's and quartets. If I want to rock out, I have bigger amps and speakers I can do that with. But for this more polite music, this combo works beautifully.
Alfmonster
Active Member
Update: Pairing my 3's with my MC225 now(the horror!!!
In the spirit of the revival of this thread - I did end up purchasing a fully restored Teak Oiled AR3. I have it paired with the 225/mx110z combo and also have found, like you, that this combination is just so very sweet. The mc225 doesn’t seem to be short on any power when playing through the AR3. I listen to this a few times a week - but use the AR3/ Mac4100 combo for my daily listen. The Mac4100/AR3 also has a beautiful sound.
After having owned the AR3s for a bit over a year now, although I’m sure there are much better speakers out there, I can confidently say that these speakers are quite special in their own right and will do very well with classical and jazz. Surprisingly amazing with symphonies.
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With the right room, right music, right placement and the right amp, the AR3's sound can sound absolutely magical with significantly less power then what is commonly recommended. They are not for everybody, even those with big amps, but for those of us that really appreciate their attributes, they are as special as one can get.
Unless I'm mistaken, AR's recommended amplifier range with the AR3 was 20 to 100 watts. It wasn't uncommon for a tube Fisher receiver to be used with a pair of AR3s whose output was no greater than an MC225 and probably less. If looking to reproduce SPLs of a rock concert, the AR3 probably isn't for you no matter how much power is thrown at it- which is probably not what it was designed to handle in the first place. Amplifiers with output capability over 100 watts were atypical at the time the AR3 was introduced.
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fred soop
Super Member
From a 1974 AR data sheet, recommended amplifier power is 25 watts per channel continuous.
It is also mentioned in another data sheet that they can be used with amplifiers up to 100 watts when reproducing conventional music or speech. The AR-3a with FNM 1-1/4 amp fuse can handle 67 watts for 10 seconds, 22 watts for 30 seconds, 10 watts long term average.
It is also mentioned in another data sheet that they can be used with amplifiers up to 100 watts when reproducing conventional music or speech. The AR-3a with FNM 1-1/4 amp fuse can handle 67 watts for 10 seconds, 22 watts for 30 seconds, 10 watts long term average.
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