Beveridge Model 5 - Restore

[Audio Fan]

I have read that about them being on opposing walls, but also, I think MeatInStereo said that Rick Beveridge stated it was not really true. Either way, unfortunately, I will not be able to confirm anyway because this room cannot accommodate such an arrangement as there are no parallel walls where they could be placed.

One thing I have found is that the sound field is very directional on the vertical axis, the same way as my Maggies. They are 5' tall, so the sweet spot is between the transducer which is from 2' - 5'. As such, I will probably look into getting some stands made to raise them a little. This is apparently the reason the early models were 6' tall.

On the horizontal axis, so far, I think a slight toe in is best, but it has been interesting playing with the sound as they are toed in to each other and turning them away from each other.

 

[eurasian]

The later models were designed to have a narrower dispersion pattern at high frequencies--something like 135deg. vs. 180deg.--so they are not the best candidates for the classic "Beveridge" positioning scheme. You will get the maximum high frequency output when your listening position is perpendicular to the plane of the esl element.

The reason for the original 6' height was to create a line-source which would rely on ceiling and floor reflections to keep almost any realistic listening position in the near field by minimizing the influence of early room reflections. The listener would still get the benefits of later reflections to add spaciousness and depth.

 

[24hrez]

Hey Audio Fan….have not done a google Beveridge search for a while and just found this thread yesterday. I’m the guy with another early set of Model 5’s that could of helped you all several months ago. Anyway…your speakers and research are almost an exact mirror of my 2008 Model 5 purchase. Even the epoxy slats have about the same number of broken/missing pieces which I find very curious.

Here are some of my experiences. Maybe it can still be of use.
Mine had severe woofer foam rot and I did a temp rough repair rather than replace the foam. After listening for awhile, I have concluded they really need a better woofer/midbass system. I roughly calculated the crossover as 200 hz @ 18db to the woofer, and a 12db to the panels, using the cap marked as 64-77uf and a 3.6 coil. That is a lot of music information blasting into the floor! By the way… I replaced the 64-77uf cap with a 82uf from PE, # 027-954. I also replaced the 33uf in the suckout filter with 027-944. Cheap enough and have to be better than the old electrolytic‘s, though initially the sound was much harder (break in?).
I’ll have to pull out my schematic and compare it to yours. My woofers measured at 27 ohms.

I tried setting them up in different positions but found a standard electrostatic setup…so I can see myself in the mylar…produces the best image (I have not repaired the grills) . They do have wonderful dispersion, with little change in high frequency tone anywhere, but the best seat is still exactly in the middle.

One idea I have had is to build a new woofer box/stand, and turn the speakers upside down on the box so all the listening heights are proper. Then maybe some 5 or 6 in drivers to the panels and use the original woofers crossed over much lower, more like subwoofers. I had also considered a mini line style with maybe four 5 inch driver in a vertical line under the panels. Anyway… curious how you would compare the quality to your Maggies…I also have MG1 improved’s for comparison.

Dave

 

[Audio Fan]

Hey Audio Fan….have not done a google Beveridge search for a while and just found this thread yesterday. I’m the guy with another early set of Model 5’s that could of helped you all several months ago. Anyway…your speakers and research are almost an exact mirror of my 2008 Model 5 purchase. Even the epoxy slats have about the same number of broken/missing pieces which I find very curious.

Welcome to the thread! Better late than never. ;-) If yours also have missing slats, then I have to assume at this point, that is not coincidental, but planned. I think they were purposely removing some of them to get it to a specific measurement. Also, you happen to know what serial numbers yours are by chance? Mine are 33 and 34.

Here are some of my experiences. Maybe it can still be of use.
Mine had severe woofer foam rot and I did a temp rough repair rather than replace the foam. After listening for awhile, I have concluded they really need a better woofer/midbass system. I roughly calculated the crossover as 200 hz @ 18db to the woofer, and a 12db to the panels, using the cap marked as 64-77uf and a 3.6 coil. That is a lot of music information blasting into the floor! By the way… I replaced the 64-77uf cap with a 82uf from PE, # 027-954. I also replaced the 33uf in the suckout filter with 027-944. Cheap enough and have to be better than the old electrolytic‘s, though initially the sound was much harder (break in?).
I’ll have to pull out my schematic and compare it to yours. My woofers measured at 27 ohms.

My woofers had been refoamed at some point, so are in very good shape, however, completely agree with your assessment, this is a weak point in the design. Another AKer, MeatInStereo, owns a set of Model 3's that have gone the external subwoofer route and only the transducer is used in the Beveridges. He confirms this setup is a HUGE improvement. I am already considering this direction going forward.

I tried setting them up in different positions but found a standard electrostatic setup…so I can see myself in the mylar…produces the best image (I have not repaired the grills) . They do have wonderful dispersion, with little change in high frequency tone anywhere, but the best seat is still exactly in the middle.

You have yet to repair the grills?! You must be single. Here's some pics of the grill solution I came up with, may give you some ideas. It looks fine and I did not add any additional mods to the speakers themselves, I used all of the original screw placements. I had to use flash so you can see the screws, but because I painted them black, they blend in quite well.

One idea I have had is to build a new woofer box/stand, and turn the speakers upside down on the box so all the listening heights are proper. Then maybe some 5 or 6 in drivers to the panels and use the original woofers crossed over much lower, more like subwoofers. I had also considered a mini line style with maybe four 5 inch driver in a vertical line under the panels. Anyway… curious how you would compare the quality to your Maggies…I also have MG1 improved’s for comparison.

Dave

I was also thinking about some sort of stands, but only to raise them about 6" higher to have better sound when I am standing. Ironic you also have Maggies too. They are similar sounding although I have yet to do A/B comparisons. I have them on another system at the moment, but that came to mind the other night.

 

[24hrez]

Hey again,
The grill frames look good! creative idea. I managed to talk with Rick Beveridge several years ago and he gave me info on how to replicate and install replacement original grills. Mine came with the little aluminum strips in the middle still in good condition. Oh yeah...not single but have a dedicated audio den
For now I will put up a couple of photos I shot before I removed the crumbling mess of foam. It also looks like what may have been stuck to your transducer. Mine were full of it and I had to blow off and vacuum the insides of everything, including getting it out of the epoxy slats. To blow out the lenses, Rick said to make a pipe out of 1/2 inch copper tube with a few holes drilled in it, and hook it up to a compressor, to blow from inside out. Much vibrated into the lenses when I moved them, as I put them on a mattress in the bed of a truck with the lenses up so the cardboard lenses would not be damaged. when I got them home I realized I had created a secondary problem of crumbling foam everywhere.
Also a couple of photos of the serial numbers. And on the transformer, mine have 3-81 as a date.
Also a photo I pulled off the old website years ago of a model 6 lenses assembly.

Regarding the missing slats, I would be more inclined to believe it is just damage, or maybe they were leaving the factory that way, with the ones on the back side as less than perfect but useable castings. I believe the Model 5 was an economy model, and a slat or 2 missing probably does not make any difference in the sound quality. I also recently picked up a pair of original Model 2's and all the panels are perfect, both sides. I suppose that to really figure out the numbers will require making a list of all the reference numbers from the 8 panels I have and then doing enough measurements to figure out the marking system. There is clearly a peak notch filter in the passive Model 5 crossover, with the 5 ohm resistor, 33uf cap, and .59 coil in parallel. Maybe the panels are matched for frequency response.
cool to find another older pair being documented. these things a rare. Mine actually came with the original shipping tubes, 24" round, maybe the same thing the larger Model 3's were made of. On the label it says "Sys 4” and “ 4-81”, although they are clearly Model 5’s. It may have come with a crossover and or subwoofers as a set or System 4. Neat stuff figuring this all out, and then we get to listen! I liked the audio archeology comment made earlier.
Anyway...I'll put up a few more photos for reference over the weekend unless you have any specific questions.
Dave

 

[DjLebaron]

Well, prepping to do some testing tomorrow and was just reviewing the wiring.

Below is a pic of the crossover and the binding post connections with numbers. Oddly enough, nothing is attached to two of the broken binding posts, so no idea why there are there. The front and back of the stat runs through the 6&9 and 5&8 wires. The woofer appears to be 3 & 4, however, the two twisted black and green wires going off to the left hookup to the woofer, so it seems the 7 and unmarked post would connect to it, but I can't understand how 7 is connected.

The external view of the binding posts for reference.

An overall pic of the crossover for reference.

So for testing, I should be fine to 5/8 ground and 6/9 positive to my test frequency and see if I can get some output.

Hi there, I am late to the punch here. On the crossover are the letters J.C. which stands for Joe Curcio. As I understand it, he was contracted by Rick to work on the electronics. I got a set of some prototypes from him. One of mine went dead just like yours and I was not as brave as you to get it working. Joe said to place them across from each other on the long wall. Mine were about 5' tall and I put them on crates to get them about 7' up so I can hear them when walking around. The panels need to be above ear level or you will hear no highs.:tresbon:

 

[JoeESP9]

24hrez:
Beveridge's and Acoustat's. Such wonderful toys.

 

[Audio Fan]

Hi there, I am late to the punch here. On the crossover are the letters J.C. which stands for Joe Curcio. As I understand it, he was contracted by Rick to work on the electronics. I got a set of some prototypes from him. One of mine went dead just like yours and I was not as brave as you to get it working. Joe said to place them across from each other on the long wall. Mine were about 5' tall and I put them on crates to get them about 7' up so I can hear them when walking around. The panels need to be above ear level or you will hear no highs.:tresbon:

I was hoping at some point someone would be able to identify "JC". Thank you so much for adding that information.

As for placement, I just decided to move my main system into another room where I can have more options on placement, so I'll get to try out the opposing walls facing each other. I'm also going to look into getting some kind of stand made that is custom fit, meaning circular, to raise them as well. I'll have to play with the height a bit, but I'm thinking only about 6 - 8" at most so they are fine when sitting too.

You still have those prototypes? Maybe time to dig them out and do some troubleshooting.:thmbsp:

 

[24hrez]

Hey Audio Fan,
I'll put up my crossover info over the weekend. I figured it all out when I first got them. I believe the crossover allows you to use the output to drive an external subwoofer, or standard setup with a single stereo amp and internal woofer, or bi-amp using an electronic crossover. I believe the largest capacitor, the 130-157uf, is a protection cap, so nothing below about 70 hertz ever reaches the panels. On the weekend I will clean up my scribbled notes and schematic so they are readable by others .
I also found a note here that the fuse should be 3 amps per Rick.

Dave

 

[DjLebaron]

Hey Audio Fan,

I went through a period of speaker GAS that was a bit ridiculous. I ended up trading the Beveridges a long with a whole buch of gear. These were unfinished and looked like they belonged on the set of Alien vs Predator uke2:, so it was easy to let them go. They were very interesting when they worked though. A lot of people think that E-Stats aren't good for normal music, but these were great with all types. They are not punchy but put out room filling sound. I noticed that they are more efficient than people make them out to be as well. I got plenty out of a 100 WPC NAD 2400 amp. I tried out the big Adcom (that Pass designed) and it was way too noisy with those things. You need to have a really clean sounding amp with no buzzes or program noise.

 

[Grainger49]

. . . I'll get to try out the opposing walls facing each other. . . .

I'll be interested to hear how this works out. It sounds like a large, no make that very, very large pair of headphones. Did you mean with you sitting between them? Sounds like I don't understand.

The Beveridge are unusual as they don't use the back wave, that's half of the output. My SS-1s benefited from being on the short wall, toed in, about 18" above the floor (they waste too much sound into the carpet as Infinity made them to sit on the floor) and aimed to bounce the rear wave to the outside of the panels.

You will not find another speaker that has the transient response and detail that electrostatics have. You are a lucky man.

 

[24hrez]

Hi Audio Fan,
I finally cleaned up my notes, shot a binding post picture, and also found a Model 5 spec sheet I had downloaded years ago. Looks like you figured this out many posts ago, so our notes agree. This info probably only applies to these very old epoxy transducer 5’s. The binding post photo shows jumpers that were in place when I picked up my pair.
Input wiring = plus to A/E, ground to B/F.

I have never seen any documentation that may have been provided to the original purchaser on recommended set-up. Maybe we’ll get lucky someday and someone will scan and post it.

All this has inspired me again to get work on some front firing external woofers and to try tweaking the XO, or go active, to get a seamless blend. All good fun!

Dave

edit : looks like the spec sheet did not post. I'll see what I have to change and try again

 

[24hrez]

All right- had to make it into a pdf. Also posting a shot of the rats nest that goes to the binding posts. I noticed in the photo where you numbered the terminal block and binding posts there is a difference in some of the numbers, or to put it another way... some of the numbers you have on the binding posts do not correspond to what I think are the same number on the terminal block, or at least it is different from mine. I assume since I'm so late to this party that you have it all cleared up by now. but let me know if you need more shots of anything.
Dave

 

[jimfet]

I love this thread. Nothing beats hard work paying off.

 

[Audio Fan]

I'll be interested to hear how this works out. It sounds like a large, no make that very, very large pair of headphones. Did you mean with you sitting between them? Sounds like I don't understand.

The Beveridge are unusual as they don't use the back wave, that's half of the output. My SS-1s benefited from being on the short wall, toed in, about 18" above the floor (they waste too much sound into the carpet as Infinity made them to sit on the floor) and aimed to bounce the rear wave to the outside of the panels.

You will not find another speaker that has the transient response and detail that electrostatics have. You are a lucky man.

Actually, I will have the option of sitting between them or in front of them, so will try both! I'll probably start moving the system this coming weekend, so hope to get some listening time in soon and will report back.

 

[Audio Fan]

All right- had to make it into a pdf. Also posting a shot of the rats nest that goes to the binding posts. I noticed in the photo where you numbered the terminal block and binding posts there is a difference in some of the numbers, or to put it another way... some of the numbers you have on the binding posts do not correspond to what I think are the same number on the terminal block, or at least it is different from mine. I assume since I'm so late to this party that you have it all cleared up by now. but let me know if you need more shots of anything.
Dave

Wow, some actual Beveridge documentation! That is much more rare than an actual set of speakers.

Regarding the wiring, I took the crossover out and actually followed each terminal post connection back to it and added the numbers because I disconnected it and wanted to make sure to connect it back properly. I did not realize it at first, but the two posts without connections were moved by the previous owner, so that is why they are doubled up (designated as 5/8 and 6/9 in the original pics). Below is an updated pic showing where the connections are now with the new posts. When I installed the new posts, I put them back the way they were. However, the bottom posts with the green/red wires you are showing as being all Pos posts. The previous owner designated them as +/-, so I followed his lead.

 

[24hrez]

I'll check out the wiring tonight...I am supposed to actually be working right now.
But I will put up a few more photos...last night the net went offline just after I put up the spec sheet and before could post these.
Oh yeah...the spec sheet is actually 3 different individual web pages that were downloaded years ago. I had trouble posting in their original form so I stuck them all on one document. I still have no idea what an original owner would have received.

So I'm posting some scary stator pics. Plenty of damage but they play OK. One channel plays about 1-2 db softer, but they sound great. I think I need to wash the stators. Going to have to put some thought into how to clean them, and what to use. Notice the white substance that is bridging the gap. It is in blotchy patches all over the mylar.
Dave

 

[24hrez]

My speakers are world travelers! Must be a good story in them. Maybe the stuff on the stators is beer

 

[Audio Fan]

My speakers are world travelers! Must be a good story in them. Maybe the stuff on the stators is beer

Whoa! I'll say. Looks like they really made their rounds, oh if those things could talk what would they reveal? :scratch2:

 

[jimfet]

I was just on ebay and saw where they have a Harold Beveridge, pre amp for sale and some ads and reviews. Something you don't see everyday. They not be mine..