Jailtime
Standin' on a corner
Not that I have the money, but for some reason these look really nice--http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=7847184&cat=494&lpid=. C60 Sovereign S8R, can't be too bad. 
BIG JBLs in my area
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Jailtime
Standin' on a corner
tubino
A guy with too many tubes
Is this a good time for me to dredge up an old but true story of passing on a pair of these for about 10% of that price?
caddisgeek
sorry.......what?
BMWCCA
Addicted Member
Is this the voice of experience speaking, or just shooting from the hip?
While the design of my four-way JBL system may be 30-years-old, the components have all been replaced or re-coned to work at as-new specifications. Just yesterday I listened to a $13,000 pair of speakers at a shop and those old JBLs would blow them away. I know mine sure do!
Sometimes there's just no substitute for cubic inches! :thmbsp:
What matters is if they "float your boat!" And if the price doesn't get you in the doghouse with your wife.
Listen before plunking down that kind of cash.
Listen before plunking down that kind of cash.
Go on, or you can hear about mine (no passive radiator) for $150
I missed a pair of L45 Flairs with an S8R load for something like $50 on CL a while back by >< that much. :tears:
Is this the voice of experience speaking, or just shooting from the hip?
While the design of my four-way JBL system may be 30-years-old, the components have all been replaced or re-coned to work at as-new specifications. Just yesterday I listened to a $13,000 pair of speakers at a shop and those old JBLs would blow them away. I know mine sure do!
Sometimes there's just no substitute for cubic inches! :thmbsp:
JBl has made some nice speakers, and some of their new tower models sound excellent, especially considering the price.
While I haven't heard this particuliar model, IMHO-many, if not $500-$3000 speakers sound better than most 30+ year old designs (perhaps Maggies are the exception and some Heils)
Why? Better, lighter weight materials making the the speakers better able to produce (faster if you will) the source material with out time distortions. Better application of dersign therories. Better crossover designs perhaps as well, better componets.
Lets face, the same holds true for cars.
Even the best sports cars of say the heyday of muscle cars 1968-handle way worse than even a entry level car today. Radial tires, better suspension designs, componets etc. While it's hard to beat the styling of those cars, even many midrange family sedans are faster than many of those muscle cars-again technology, fuel injection-precise ignition and fuel controls-etc. Styling of course is a timeless thing, hard to beat those classics in that regard.
While I love vintage componets, I find many modern speakers (the JBL towers for example) sound remarkably good in their overall presentation, depth/soundstage, and can be had for unbelievable prices. They obviously don't have the sentimental value, but if sheer quality sound is what your looking for, there are some great bargins in speakers in the $500-$1500 range.
IN the $3000 range it becomes a bit difficult, ( and I would say in the $30,000 range for sure) because the esoteric factor starts to come into play ( or the Emperors New Clothes should I say). Annd the competion at those price points isn't so feirce as the $500-$1500 range (not unlike the '70s and '80's as I recall).
But of course it all depends on what your prefer, and your source equipment as well is as important as anything else.
Let's face it, some still think the OLA Advent, or a pair of AR 3's are still the best sounding speakers period.
To each his own!
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BMWCCA
Addicted Member
That's what I was asking. Nothing personal, but you're giving an opinion without ever hearing the model in question. The generalization suggests a prejudice when you say Maggies may be the exception to your "rule" but you've never even heard the JBL model in question. I suggest you go out and audition a pair, then report back. You might have an epiphany.
Lighter in speakers is not always better. And do you know what a compression driver is, or how a horn functions??
Cheaper cabinets can resonate. Lighter magnet assemblies can't always handle the power or reproduce the bass. The market today is driven by smaller size and cheaper price. That's about it. We fool ourselves into thinking a home-theater-in-a-box system sounds fine but then, just like you, few have had the opportunity to ever hear a really big vintage JBL system.
I know a bit about the car biz so I know your analogy doesn't make your case, or mine. New cars are much heavier than cars from just fifteen years ago, and that's not a benefit. Like modern AV amps, new cars offer more gadgets than anyone ever asked for simply because they can. And they all add weight. They produce a lot of power because technology has made it available at less cost. But they also lose the visceral feel, feedback, and the driver's connection to the car and the road that defined true sports cars of the past. Read the reviews and you'll see very few manufacturers are praised for their steering and feedback though all can go zero-to-sixty in five-seconds these days. That's not really the most important feature for people who enjoy the total driving experience.
And the hi-fi listening experience isn't all punchy bass delivered by 6" "woofers" in a "tower" with a one-square-foot footprint with a sub on steroids in the corner. Go listen to an S8R system and then review your blanket statement:
You might find a whole new hi-fi world out there that was created years ago (perhaps before many here were born) that you've somehow missed.:thmbsp:
I listened to a $13,000 pair of Thiels the other day. What a disappointment! I'll stick with vintage.
JBLs: LX22, L26, L20T, L96, L112, L150A, L1, L5, L7, 4412A, 030 C27, 4345
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As far as the cars go, I was talking techlogogy wise. The cars got heavier for a number of reasons that I'm sure you are aware of, if what you say you know about cars as true. I sold cars for 15 years-and was a mechanic as well- I know about them. And I'm am very familiar with the marketing side-don't need a lecture on that either. You can point out you thoughts without being demeaning -kind of rude. I could have pointed out, given your equipment description at that bottom of your post you are clearly biased towards JBL's-however I thought that would be presumptious and rude (as you did of of Maggies).
There are always more than one point of view, respecting that is what gains us true knowledge.
Be happy with your JBL's we agree to disagree-thanks for you opinion, as that's what it cleary is, as well as mine.
There are always more than one point of view, respecting that is what gains us true knowledge.
Be happy with your JBL's we agree to disagree-thanks for you opinion, as that's what it cleary is, as well as mine.
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BMWCCA
Addicted Member
True, but an uninformed point of view stated as an opinion is just that. True, too, I own JBLs, but I've listened to countless other brands over the past fifty years. That's how I came to decide what I wanted to own. Nothing I said about Maggies was rude or even an assessment of their sound or value. Some of my best friends . . .
Snow
Super Member
Well IMHO I think you would in most cases be hard pressed to find speakers today for 3k that sound near as good as those JBL's that cost 3k back in the day, simple economics come into play it is hard to produce the same qualty today for the same price. As far as woofers being lighter and able to move faster etc and that will sound better because of this is untrue in fact JBL used an AquaPlas coating to add weight to the woofers to make them sound better, Polk used a different coating on there drivers to achieve the same effect, cast baskets versus stamped baskets are always heavier and sound better because of them being heavier, in fact people are constantly applying Dynamat and other coatings to their drivers to prevent resonance due to the drivers being lighter.
Crossovers are one of the few areas in my mind that have actually shown great improvement in speaker development in the last 30years and there is many upgrades one can do to 30 year old speakers in this area and obtain a great looking and sounding speaker for less money because you have a good base to improve upon with the heavier cabinents and better built drivers fot the same $$ amount.
REGARDS JIM
Crossovers are one of the few areas in my mind that have actually shown great improvement in speaker development in the last 30years and there is many upgrades one can do to 30 year old speakers in this area and obtain a great looking and sounding speaker for less money because you have a good base to improve upon with the heavier cabinents and better built drivers fot the same $$ amount.
REGARDS JIM
True, but an uninformed point of view stated as an opinion is just that. True, too, I own JBLs, but I've listened to countless other brands over the past fifty years. That's how I came to decide what I wanted to own. Nothing I said about Maggies was rude or even an assessment of their sound or value. Some of my best friends . . .
"Do you know anything about compression drivers"-seems a bit presumptious and rude. Not the comment about Maggies.
Thanks for letting me know I'm uniformed as well. I never stated anything I said was fact, one could easily gather they were they were opinions-again another presumption.
I have been around audio equipment almost as long, but I don't feel the need to have to prove myself by saying I have done this, or I'm this or that, or the need to have others (such as yourself) as I presume their ideas, as well as yours have some merit, regardless of their walks of life. Why? A person joining this site for one thing obviously. But most impotantly audio and sound are such a subjective thing that clearly, even taking a brief look at the forums here, thats easy to see. No one has the last or overiding "word" on quality sound.
Perhaps I was technically incorrect on why I feel many newer speakers sound better, but that still doesn't change the subjective nature of the sound. With the exception of the newer JBLS' I don't prefer the sound of most older models I have heard, perhaps updated, such as crossovers etc I would, but that in part was my point, technology can prove to be benifical. And again how they sound to me is IMHO.
To each his own.....
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BMWCCA
Addicted Member
This has gone past silly. Now we're sounding like a joint meeting of both houses in DC.
Anyone can talk about technological improvements in speakers making them "quicker" but an aluminum diaphragm in a compression driver from the '60s is actually light and by definition as quick as you'd ever want a transducer to be without it going back in time. Newer versions went to Titanium but they weren't always as strong. Many use Be diaphragms today just because they're stronger, still, but often coatings are applied to keep them from being too shrill. Those old drivers in the S8R load are so inferior to today's technology that the best SR systems are still using the same or similar technology today!
The real problem here is not that you and I disagree, but that the subject of this thread was a specific pair of speakers and a specific model and brand, and you formulated an opinion and stated your evaluation never having listened to a pair. Taking your point above, a person joining this site may look at your stated opinion, look at your number of posts, and think that what you're saying has a reasonably sound basis in experience. But you've never heard the system in question or, for that matter, maybe any vintage JBL 3-way or 4-way system from that era.
It's a problem with the Internet, in general, and forums like this specifically, that innuendo becomes fact. Statements without basis get copied and sent around the world. Empirical evidence is no longer necessary. And data is replaced with wanking. We'll never stop it but we can start here by at least being honest with our fellow members when we pull our opinion out of our shorts and say we've never had any experience with the specific item we're discussing but "here's my preconceived notion based on my stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night." I'm pretty sure we all want this site to have some value beyond hearing ourselves pontificate, right?
I've owned a lot of speakers in my life, but many here have owned ten-times as many. In general I restrain myself from commenting on anything I don't have personal experience with. I'm open-minded enough to consider the value in those things I'm not familiar with, and curious enough to listen, look at, or even purchase things just to try them out for myself. Nothing has to do anything more than satisfy my own ears. But I won't ever tell anyone something isn't worth their time if I haven't at least experienced it for myself. And even then, it's only IMNSHO.
Friends?
Anyone can talk about technological improvements in speakers making them "quicker" but an aluminum diaphragm in a compression driver from the '60s is actually light and by definition as quick as you'd ever want a transducer to be without it going back in time. Newer versions went to Titanium but they weren't always as strong. Many use Be diaphragms today just because they're stronger, still, but often coatings are applied to keep them from being too shrill. Those old drivers in the S8R load are so inferior to today's technology that the best SR systems are still using the same or similar technology today!
The real problem here is not that you and I disagree, but that the subject of this thread was a specific pair of speakers and a specific model and brand, and you formulated an opinion and stated your evaluation never having listened to a pair. Taking your point above, a person joining this site may look at your stated opinion, look at your number of posts, and think that what you're saying has a reasonably sound basis in experience. But you've never heard the system in question or, for that matter, maybe any vintage JBL 3-way or 4-way system from that era.
It's a problem with the Internet, in general, and forums like this specifically, that innuendo becomes fact. Statements without basis get copied and sent around the world. Empirical evidence is no longer necessary. And data is replaced with wanking. We'll never stop it but we can start here by at least being honest with our fellow members when we pull our opinion out of our shorts and say we've never had any experience with the specific item we're discussing but "here's my preconceived notion based on my stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night." I'm pretty sure we all want this site to have some value beyond hearing ourselves pontificate, right?
I've owned a lot of speakers in my life, but many here have owned ten-times as many. In general I restrain myself from commenting on anything I don't have personal experience with. I'm open-minded enough to consider the value in those things I'm not familiar with, and curious enough to listen, look at, or even purchase things just to try them out for myself. Nothing has to do anything more than satisfy my own ears. But I won't ever tell anyone something isn't worth their time if I haven't at least experienced it for myself. And even then, it's only IMNSHO.
Friends?
This has gone past silly. Now we're sounding like a joint meeting of both houses in DC.
Anyone can talk about technological improvements in speakers making them "quicker" but an aluminum diaphragm in a compression driver from the '60s is actually light and by definition as quick as you'd ever want a transducer to be without it going back in time. Newer versions went to Titanium but they weren't always as strong. Many use Be diaphragms today just because they're stronger, still, but often coatings are applied to keep them from being too shrill. Those old drivers in the S8R load are so inferior to today's technology that the best SR systems are still using the same or similar technology today!
The real problem here is not that you and I disagree, but that the subject of this thread was a specific pair of speakers and a specific model and brand, and you formulated an opinion and stated your evaluation never having listened to a pair. Taking your point above, a person joining this site may look at your stated opinion, look at your number of posts, and think that what you're saying has a reasonably sound basis in experience. But you've never heard the system in question or, for that matter, maybe any vintage JBL 3-way or 4-way system from that era.
It's a problem with the Internet, in general, and forums like this specifically, that innuendo becomes fact. Statements without basis get copied and sent around the world. Empirical evidence is no longer necessary. And data is replaced with wanking. We'll never stop it but we can start here by at least being honest with our fellow members when we pull our opinion out of our shorts and say we've never had any experience with the specific item we're discussing but "here's my preconceived notion based on my stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night." I'm pretty sure we all want this site to have some value beyond hearing ourselves pontificate, right?
I've owned a lot of speakers in my life, but many here have owned ten-times as many. In general I restrain myself from commenting on anything I don't have personal experience with. I'm open-minded enough to consider the value in those things I'm not familiar with, and curious enough to listen, look at, or even purchase things just to try them out for myself. Nothing has to do anything more than satisfy my own ears. But I won't ever tell anyone something isn't worth their time if I haven't at least experienced it for myself. And even then, it's only IMNSHO.
Friends?
Sounds good to me..:thmbsp:
beemer
Vintage Graduate
Guys in my area who've met me will tell ya that I have owned and heard quite a few things over the years.
My experience with JBL's higher end offerings even with a few years on them has been most pleasant, and I crave to own them when my budget allows.
There's reason these sell for serious money, even today..... as they compete very well with newer and more "modern" designs.
BMWCCA is correct in his assessment in the above quote. No offense however I double up laughing as I read some posts here about "good" sound. In the spirit of this forum I try although not always successful at keeping attitude out of my posts. :nono: The sheer amount of "innuendo" present here at times is mind boggling to say the least however.
Best part is, at almost any price range there are speakers to satisfy almost anyone. What most folks don't alway comprehend here is that the better speakers require better components upstream to realize their full potential, and not all our members are willing to step up to complete a proper audio chain......thus they write that Holy grail speaker "A" or "B" did not live up to their expectations and therefore folks who said they were good must be wrong!
We're all here to enjoy our passion, and we are all brothers in our love of music.
Best,
Paul
My experience with JBL's higher end offerings even with a few years on them has been most pleasant, and I crave to own them when my budget allows.
There's reason these sell for serious money, even today..... as they compete very well with newer and more "modern" designs.
BMWCCA is correct in his assessment in the above quote. No offense however I double up laughing as I read some posts here about "good" sound. In the spirit of this forum I try although not always successful at keeping attitude out of my posts. :nono: The sheer amount of "innuendo" present here at times is mind boggling to say the least however.
Best part is, at almost any price range there are speakers to satisfy almost anyone. What most folks don't alway comprehend here is that the better speakers require better components upstream to realize their full potential, and not all our members are willing to step up to complete a proper audio chain......thus they write that Holy grail speaker "A" or "B" did not live up to their expectations and therefore folks who said they were good must be wrong!
We're all here to enjoy our passion, and we are all brothers in our love of music.
Best,
Paul
Nicely put:thmbsp: We all have our good and bad days, objectively and subjectively.
Thanks
I agree about matching equipment, is more important than people think, and sometimes is easy to forget when your are hearing a different system, different componets, especially those you are unfamiliar with.
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