Budget Alternative to TD124

[Hifiler]

@Amorphous1 maybe you are second guessing posting your question here.

As often happens your seemingly simple request quickly morphed into a debate on a common topic, in this case a variation of the "all turntables sound about the same" belief (which IMO is absurd).

Of course it is all in the spirit of helping, and there has been some excellent advice too.

Getting back to your question, I have both a Thorens TD-121 and TD-124 MkII which each has been fully restored by Greg at STS Turntables (no affiliation). Both are excellent decks, and I do not think you would be disappointed with a 121, as long as you are OK with the single speed.

That said, the 124 is a better sounding table, if the rest of your system, room, ears, and LPs are able to resolve the differences. They both have the same "surface noise on the platter", but the 124 allows more detail and bass to be retrieved; and is a better platform for hearing the differences among different arms and carts. Remember that this is just relative to a 121, which is a fine table.

What is it that is drawing you to the Thorens idlers? As @Mister Pig pointed out these are unique tables and really don't have any direct comparisons (at least that are readily available).

What is your budget? With patience perhaps one of these tables may be in reach. PM me if you would like the pricing details that I went through with my 121 and 124, you might be surprised.

BTW it sounded like you were trying to compare the sound characteristics of different turntables by YouTube videos? This of course is not possible AT ALL. If you can't experience different tables yourself, you will have to do your homework, decide what advice and whose opinions you trust, and make a decision and get started!

Of course the good thing is that you are never going to be stuck with any single table. All of the turntables you are considering are in demand among people like us, and are relatively easily moved along...

 

[Hifiler]

Now if your speakers don't respond below 50 HZ and all you listen to is rock I guess a 124 is acceptable, but other wise if you have a true Hifidelity system, you don't want a 124.

The OP posts that he is interested in a TD-124 and you basically call it junk?

 

[jobrewer1983]

@Amorphous1 maybe you are second guessing posting your question here.

As often happens your seemingly simple request quickly morphed into a debate on a common topic, in this case a variation of the "all turntables sound about the same" belief (which IMO is absurd).

Of course it is all in the spirit of helping, and there has been some excellent advice too.

Getting back to your question, I have both a Thorens TD-121 and TD-124 MkII which each has been fully restored by Greg at STS Turntables (no affiliation). Both are excellent decks, and I do not think you would be disappointed with a 121, as long as you are OK with the single speed.

That said, the 124 is a better sounding table, if the rest of your system, room, ears, and LPs are able to resolve the differences. They both have the same "surface noise on the platter", but the 124 allows more detail and bass to be retrieved; and is a better platform for hearing the differences among different arms and carts. Remember that this is just relative to a 121, which is a fine table.

What is it that is drawing you to the Thorens idlers? As @Mister Pig pointed out these are unique tables and really don't have any direct comparisons (at least that are readily available).

What is your budget? With patience perhaps one of these tables may be in reach. PM me if you would like the pricing details that I went through with my 121 and 124, you might be surprised.

BTW it sounded like you were trying to compare the sound characteristics of different turntables by YouTube videos? This of course is not possible AT ALL. If you can't experience different tables yourself, you will have to do your homework, decide what advice and whose opinions you trust, and make a decision and get started!

Of course the good thing is that you are never going to be stuck with any single table. All of the turntables you are considering are in demand among people like us, and are relatively easily moved along...

Please show me in this thread where any one said all turntables are the same?

 

[jobrewer1983]

The OP posts that he is interested in a TD-124 and you basically call it junk?

is it not?

you are just partial to your gear.. Funny how that works...

 

[Hifiler]

is it not?

you are just partial to your gear.. Funny how that works...

Not sure I understand.

My comment was regarding a member basically calling something the OP is interested in "junk".

Not a polite or kind thing to do IMO.

Personally, I couldn't care less what anybody thinks of my gear.

 

[Hifiler]

Please show me in this thread where any one said all turntables are the same?

I think once you get the platter noise down to zero, the only real characteristics of what you are hearing is from the arm, and the cart and the pressing of the LP itself.

Which is why I said "...in this case a variation of the "all turntables sound about the same belief", which I think is an accurate description of the spirit of some of the comments.

It is clear that you don't believe that all turntables sound exactly the same. But at the same time you believe that above a certain level of quality, that the cart and arm matter more than the table. Which of course is a perfectly reasonable opinion. Not that you need my approval.

 

[jobrewer1983]

Not sure I understand.

My comment was regarding a member basically calling something the OP is interested in "junk".

Not a polite or kind thing to do IMO.

Personally, I couldn't care less what anybody thinks of my gear.

I was poking at you saying "is it not"

 

[jobrewer1983]

Which is why I said "...in this case a variation of the "all turntables sound about the same belief", which I think is an accurate description of the spirit of some of the comments.

It is clear that you don't believe that all turntables sound exactly the same. But at the same time you believe that above a certain level of quality, that the cart and arm matter more than the table. Which of course is a perfectly reasonable opinion. Not that you need my approval.

I stand by my statement, I do believe that once you get the platter surface down to zero the arm and cart is really shine and show the characteristics if the LP.

That said, that is not the same as saying all turntables sound the same.

Regards,
John

 

[Hifiler]

That said, that is not the same as saying all turntables sound the same.

Agreed. Let's hope we hear back from the OP.

 

[jobrewer1983]

Agreed. Let's hope we hear back from the OP.

I don’t think we will, I thought this was a spam post from the get go.

Think about it, he’s looking for his 1st table yet gives a detailed account of the table... who knows he may have listened to one and feels it’s what he wants. I think it’s just one of those posts... who know

OP you a troll or someone looking for info?

 

[Mitkraft]

The OP said he was auditioning the way various turntables sounded via YouTube videos. Y'all are getting trolled.

 

[jobrewer1983]

The OP said he was auditioning the way various turntables sounded via YouTube videos. Y'all are getting trolled.

I figured that from the star, stated that in the last post.

 

[twiiii]

Sounds to me if your 125/126's were less than ideal there was something wrong. Their W&F easily measured below .04% with a belt with 50 hours on it. A factory belt not some off the wall equivalent. Rumble was below -6464 db with the turn table in motion using the German B standard. With the belt removed and the table spinning and the motor on at apex 33 rpm the measurement was over 68 db and with the TT still the rumble was below 70 db. yes its not a SME or Vpi each costing way over $5000 dollars and the SME approaching $15,000. is a 125 a Technics SL 10 Mk III or a new SL-10 R. NO! but then its over $15000 a in full trim. Too. A TD 124 was lucky to have a rumble figure of - 48 db and a wow and flutter reading ..08 with a broken in belt and a broken in tire. And both the 124/ and the 125s need to be warmed up for 30 minutes before their speed is consistent, No so with a Technics.

 

[Amorphous1]

@Amorphous1 maybe you are second guessing posting your question here.

As often happens your seemingly simple request quickly morphed into a debate on a common topic, in this case a variation of the "all turntables sound about the same" belief (which IMO is absurd).

Of course it is all in the spirit of helping, and there has been some excellent advice too.

Getting back to your question, I have both a Thorens TD-121 and TD-124 MkII which each has been fully restored by Greg at STS Turntables (no affiliation). Both are excellent decks, and I do not think you would be disappointed with a 121, as long as you are OK with the single speed.

That said, the 124 is a better sounding table, if the rest of your system, room, ears, and LPs are able to resolve the differences. They both have the same "surface noise on the platter", but the 124 allows more detail and bass to be retrieved; and is a better platform for hearing the differences among different arms and carts. Remember that this is just relative to a 121, which is a fine table.

What is it that is drawing you to the Thorens idlers? As @Mister Pig pointed out these are unique tables and really don't have any direct comparisons (at least that are readily available).

What is your budget? With patience perhaps one of these tables may be in reach. PM me if you would like the pricing details that I went through with my 121 and 124, you might be surprised.

BTW it sounded like you were trying to compare the sound characteristics of different turntables by YouTube videos? This of course is not possible AT ALL. If you can't experience different tables yourself, you will have to do your homework, decide what advice and whose opinions you trust, and make a decision and get started!

Of course the good thing is that you are never going to be stuck with any single table. All of the turntables you are considering are in demand among people like us, and are relatively easily moved along...

Not at all, this is not my first forum. I am aware that passion can often lead to conflict. I believe everyone has been quite civil if a little icy.

To answer your question as to what drew me to the thorens I have to address jobrewer1983 take on the arm and cartidge. I was at my friends house drinking and listening to music when he switched tables to a mass loaded monstrosity (the model eludes me) and I was floored by the sound. I asked what I was listening to and he told me it was a ortofon spu (classic conical model)/sme 3012/turntable name that eludes me. I listen to various tables/arm/catridges at his home but never really felt I needed to sell my car to buy any of them (he has very expensive turntables). But the ortofon spu really sat well with me (thought i would probably go for a more modern model, I felt it was lacking too much at the top end). Afterwards I started to research the cartridge I noticed that people keep mentioning an old thorens turntable in the spu forums. I subsequently read up on the td124 in art Dudley blog on stereophile. I listened to it once at the home of an acquaintance but only for a minute he put on Miles Davis On the Corner and I was really into it, but then we switched to a Merrill real 103 (still good but I prefered the td124). My friends been egging me on to get the td124 (he has two garrard 301s but no thorens). But I haven't been able to snag one at a good price. The wait got me thinking that I should get some thing cheaper but still good and put most of my money into the arm/spu combo. Originally I didn't state anything about the spu because there really isn't anything to discuss. That's the cart I'm gonna get and no one can talk me out of it (not trying to be rude just honest).

I don’t think we will, I thought this was a spam post from the get go.

Think about it, he’s looking for his 1st table yet gives a detailed account of the table... who knows he may have listened to one and feels it’s what he wants. I think it’s just one of those posts... who know

OP you a troll or someone looking for info?

Haha no not trolling, not on purpose anyways. I been following the thread and looking up the suggestions you and @Mister Pig have made. I just don't like typing long responses on my phone and I was busy last night. (Guys calm down the thread is only two days old). I am definitely going to look into that denon dp75 that Mister pig suggested. I'll admit the marc morrin AR XA is a interesting suggestion that does peak my interest. I didn't know he was still restoring them. I asked dave at vinyl nirvana if he would restore an AR and he told me he decided to focus on thorens.

Once at a show I asked an industry veteran which turntable he would recommend to a newbie and he said, in not so kind words, "forget about those new turntables; get an AR, find a decca international tonearm, and buy the cheapest decca and enjoy" at the time I couldn't find any ar's that didn't need a complete rehaul (nor did I know who to contact to restore one) and VPI tonearms turned me off to unipivots. But his words stuck with me, hows the bass on the Marc Morrin modified AR?

 

[Amorphous1]

most importantly - are your downstream components capable of enough resolution that you can actually TELL the difference between one turntable and another? My equipment is very modest and, to me, turntables all sound very similar. There are differences of course, but without all the other components being capable of really revealing them, it's probably best not to get too hung up on turntable choice. I suppose it's a bit like wanting to own a Ferrari or something, but then finding that you really need a four wheel drive for those weekend fishing trips - the idea of a TOTL turntable might appeal, but is it practical for you?

Good question I am going to be using turntable ->schiit mani->goldpoint sa1-> airmotiv 4s. That will turn into turntable-> schiit mani-> goldpoint sa1-> aleph J->JBL 4301b. I already own the JBLs but haven't built the aleph yet. The reason I mentioned the shure m3d is because people say its like a SPU Jr and not having to purchase a sut will free up some money to start building my aleph J sooner. Also it will give me some more time to patiently look for a tonearm to match to the spu and audition different SPUs (the spu will be bought new).

I'm upgrading my system at both ends trying to leave the middle alone until I see if I'm happy with the speaker source combo. The "linn approach" so to speak.

 

[patrick s]

Yea I really like the Sony, it will best my LP12 all day. Mind you it’s the SME, and a more robust table.

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Killer avatar, you running the grace?

I’ve got a few arms for the linns, I got into linn a few years back. I like the looks of the deck.

View attachment 1610275

Axis in the background ^^

It’s my area, I find good gear often.

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How do u find the xtc upgrade to the linn basik arm??

 

[jobrewer1983]

How do u find the xtc upgrade to the linn basik arm??

Lol I found it by google, and from there a link to eBay to a UK posting.

It’s a good upgrade, it really improves the arm.

 

[jobrewer1983]

Not at all, this is not my first forum. I am aware that passion can often lead to conflict. I believe everyone has been quite civil if a little icy.

To answer your question as to what drew me to the thorens I have to address jobrewer1983 take on the arm and cartidge. I was at my friends house drinking and listening to music when he switched tables to a mass loaded monstrosity (the model eludes me) and I was floored by the sound. I asked what I was listening to and he told me it was a ortofon spu (classic conical model)/sme 3012/turntable name that eludes me. I listen to various tables/arm/catridges at his home but never really felt I needed to sell my car to buy any of them (he has very expensive turntables). But the ortofon spu really sat well with me (thought i would probably go for a more modern model, I felt it was lacking too much at the top end). Afterwards I started to research the cartridge I noticed that people keep mentioning an old thorens turntable in the spu forums. I subsequently read up on the td124 in art Dudley blog on stereophile. I listened to it once at the home of an acquaintance but only for a minute he put on Miles Davis On the Corner and I was really into it, but then we switched to a Merrill real 103 (still good but I prefered the td124). My friends been egging me on to get the td124 (he has two garrard 301s but no thorens). But I haven't been able to snag one at a good price. The wait got me thinking that I should get some thing cheaper but still good and put most of my money into the arm/spu combo. Originally I didn't state anything about the spu because there really isn't anything to discuss. That's the cart I'm gonna get and no one can talk me out of it (not trying to be rude just honest).



Haha no not trolling, not on purpose anyways. I been following the thread and looking up the suggestions you and @Mister Pig have made. I just don't like typing long responses on my phone and I was busy last night. (Guys calm down the thread is only two days old). I am definitely going to look into that denon dp75 that Mister pig suggested. I'll admit the marc morrin AR XA is a interesting suggestion that does peak my interest. I didn't know he was still restoring them. I asked dave at vinyl nirvana if he would restore an AR and he told me he decided to focus on thorens.

Once at a show I asked an industry veteran which turntable he would recommend to a newbie and he said, in not so kind words, "forget about those new turntables; get an AR, find a decca international tonearm, and buy the cheapest decca and enjoy" at the time I couldn't find any ar's that didn't need a complete rehaul (nor did I know who to contact to restore one) and VPI tonearms turned me off to unipivots. But his words stuck with me, hows the bass on the Marc Morrin modified AR?

I don’t think you will go wrong with the Denon, they are fine tables. I’m a fan of DD decks.

The AR tables are really nice sounding too, Im not a fan of suspension tables but I can’t ever say anything bad about the ARs even with the stock arm they sound good, with a good cart it’s a “no excuse” table. It’s one of those tables that If you have someone over and want to show them whah vinyl can sound like you can say pick an LP and now worry it may sound off. No oh it’s the recording, it’s just that good. Not perfect, but pretty damn good.

That said, I’d still go with the Denon, the motors they use are just over built and dead quite.

Good luck on the project, it’s a lot of fun! Welcome to the site too!

 

[patrick s]

Lol I found it by google, and from there a link to eBay to a UK posting.

It’s a good upgrade, it really improves the arm.

Nice one!! Im thinking of doing a DIY version of that counterweight for my basik arm that im in the process of rewiring. Would u believe this arm has 4 separate connections in the wiring - from the cartridge to the headshell, the headshell to a 4 pin plug, the 4 pin plug to the internal wiring, the internal wiring to another 4 pin plug, 4 pin plug to external cable!!!! Im doing continuous run of wire from cartridge clips to rca jack lol......and im going to epoxy the headshell to the arm wand and expoxy glue the arm wand to bearing yoke to make it more rigid - should be a much better arm when im done lol. Im hoping it will then take an MC cart. In the mean time i have basik plus to use........how significant a difference does the counterweight mod make in your experience??? Oh and what is the approx lenght and diamtre of that brass barrell???

 

[Mister Pig]

Not at all, this is not my first forum. I am aware that passion can often lead to conflict. I believe everyone has been quite civil if a little icy.

To answer your question as to what drew me to the thorens I have to address jobrewer1983 take on the arm and cartidge. I was at my friends house drinking and listening to music when he switched tables to a mass loaded monstrosity (the model eludes me) and I was floored by the sound. I asked what I was listening to and he told me it was a ortofon spu (classic conical model)/sme 3012/turntable name that eludes me. I listen to various tables/arm/catridges at his home but never really felt I needed to sell my car to buy any of them (he has very expensive turntables). But the ortofon spu really sat well with me (thought i would probably go for a more modern model, I felt it was lacking too much at the top end). Afterwards I started to research the cartridge I noticed that people keep mentioning an old thorens turntable in the spu forums. I subsequently read up on the td124 in art Dudley blog on stereophile. I listened to it once at the home of an acquaintance but only for a minute he put on Miles Davis On the Corner and I was really into it, but then we switched to a Merrill real 103 (still good but I prefered the td124). My friends been egging me on to get the td124 (he has two garrard 301s but no thorens). But I haven't been able to snag one at a good price. The wait got me thinking that I should get some thing cheaper but still good and put most of my money into the arm/spu combo. Originally I didn't state anything about the spu because there really isn't anything to discuss. That's the cart I'm gonna get and no one can talk me out of it (not trying to be rude just honest).



Haha no not trolling, not on purpose anyways. I been following the thread and looking up the suggestions you and @Mister Pig have made. I just don't like typing long responses on my phone and I was busy last night. (Guys calm down the thread is only two days old). I am definitely going to look into that denon dp75 that Mister pig suggested. I'll admit the marc morrin AR XA is a interesting suggestion that does peak my interest. I didn't know he was still restoring them. I asked dave at vinyl nirvana if he would restore an AR and he told me he decided to focus on thorens.

Once at a show I asked an industry veteran which turntable he would recommend to a newbie and he said, in not so kind words, "forget about those new turntables; get an AR, find a decca international tonearm, and buy the cheapest decca and enjoy" at the time I couldn't find any ar's that didn't need a complete rehaul (nor did I know who to contact to restore one) and VPI tonearms turned me off to unipivots. But his words stuck with me, hows the bass on the Marc Morrin modified AR?

If you want an Ortofon SPU then a modified AR XA is really not going to be the table to use it on. You want a high mass arm for this cartridge. A Denon DP 75 with an Acos GST 801, or the Ortofon arms, Fidelity Research, some of the Audio Technica, the longer Jelco, those are the arms that are better suited for them. If going a modern SPU you should gather up the compliance info, but I believe you are still looking at a medium to higher mass arm.

One of the Denon DP 75/80 would be a good choice, or one of the previous generation non quartz locked Denon series of tables would also work well. Or go for the gusto, save some money and buy the TD 124. There is a member here goes by the tag name hirscwi that had a couple of lovely restored 124 for sale in Bartertown. Those were things of beauty and the prices were reasonable for what you got. But they were not cheap, and a TD 124 is hardly likely to ever be cheap. Even a beater one gets expensive once you start finding parts to restore it, if they can be found when you need them. But then for many this is an end game table worth investing the money into.

Good luck on your journey! Many people fall in love with those SPU cartridges.

Cheers
Mister Pig