Can a DAC this cheap really be this good? Yes it can! (…but with a little effort.)

[saltytown]

Another scenario has come to mind. Maybe the $13 DAC doesn't need as much current as the SU1. So it's possible using the same p.s. for the el cheapo and the SU1 is not a valid test.
Is it possible the SU1 needs more current than 1 amp? If it is starved for power that might explain cutting out, right? And, is a cheap switching USB block that states 3A output trustworthy? It's no bigger than a corresponding 1A block.
Is there a way to check the amps being supplied by the Jameco with a multi-meter? I'm reasonably sure there is.
Sourcing a reasonably priced linear power supply is kind of off the table with the punishing tariffs about to hit on Friday (assuming no waffling). The upgraded iFi wall warts have worked well for me. I know they are switching supplies but they do something to quiet them down and supply cleaner DC, at least that's what I assume.

 

[OldJBL]

Another scenario has come to mind. Maybe the $13 DAC doesn't need as much current as the SU1. So it's possible using the same p.s. for the el cheapo and the SU1 is not a valid test.
Is it possible the SU1 needs more current than 1 amp? If it is starved for power that might explain cutting out, right? And, is a cheap switching USB block that states 3A output trustworthy? It's no bigger than a corresponding 1A block.
Is there a way to check the amps being supplied by the Jameco with a multi-meter? I'm reasonably sure there is.
Sourcing a reasonably priced linear power supply is kind of off the table with the punishing tariffs about to hit on Friday (assuming no waffling). The upgraded iFi wall warts have worked well for me. I know they are switching supplies but they do something to quiet them down and supply cleaner DC, at least that's what I assume.

You should be able to use something like a Kill A Watt power use meter to determine power draw.

 

[desertrat748]

Or is this one of those mysterious things we can hear but can't measure?

It’s more of a good linear power supply definitely produces an audible difference and most of us don’t want to spend the energy on trying to pin down exactly how to measure it.

It’s a win win situation. If you can’t hear a difference, great! Don’t need to worry about it anymore. You don’t ever have to worry about buying better/cleaner power supplies for your system or devices.

If you can hear an improvement, great! You just improved your system with a simple and inexpensive upgrade!

People will still argue that all opamps, capacitors, resistors, speaker wire, interconnections etc never make a difference nor matter.

What truly doesn’t matter if it works then why worry how to measure it. Even if you are designing a DAC it should use a clean power supply.

If something does happen to improve your audio experience, and especially if it isn’t expensive, that’s a huge win in my opinion.

Suffice to say, the OP, Oranda, has made a number of suggestions and has started a few posts about his experiences with improving his system. I’ve tried most. He has never overstated the improvements or changes. Not once. I usually find myself having a big smile when I try something that he decided to share. Afterwards I am wondering why I didn’t try it earlier.

Mind the fact that I am a big skeptic about most of these topics.

I think it’s more important to understand which of the two categories a person falls into when deciding to try implementing a change.

This particular upgrade and recommendation is the largest gain/money spent for my system since I have been working on improving it. Hands down. I’m spending more and more time listening and utterly enjoying CDs now. The SMSL SU-1 w these modified has improved the experience so significantly that it is hard to explain without sounding over the top about it.

Worrying why a $15-$16 power supply makes a difference truly is not worth the time in my opinion. I could spend that on a bad lunch and regret it more.

 

[oranda]

If an analog power supply provides so much improvement, why would you stop there and not power the small, low-powered device with a rechargeable battery? It takes less than 1A to power it. A battery would surely be even better than an analog power supply connected to the AC line.

Welcome to the thread. I realize that first post was a bit long, but if you read it through, you'll see I had a similar thought. Unfortunately (and rather surprisingly), in practice using a battery power supply just didn't sound as good. Batteries made the DAC quiet, but music lacked drive and dynamics. I tried a couple of different packs, the last being a large storage, 22W battery pack, but a 1A linear regulated power supply still outperformed it.

... squeezing the best possible performance out of the DAC would bypass the internal switching supply...

Surely that would offer even more improvement than using an analog 5V supply (or battery) and the internal switching supply. I see +0.9V, +3.3V, +5V, and +/- 12V marked on the PCB.

Very good point and I agree. Upgrading from a switchmode to a linear supply was simple and made an audible difference, but things should be even further improved through bypassing those other stages as well. If you do make those mods, hopefully you'll share with us how you did it and let us know if it was worth the effort.

 

[saltytown]

It is looking like my theory of the SU1 requiring more than 1 amp is not holding up to scrutiny. Most of what I've read indicates 1a is more than enough.
Also, it appears you cannot measure DC amps without a load. It seems unlikely that a reputable company like Jameco would put out a product that that misses its stated specs.
The Yamaha is a very high quality universal disc player (although no Blu Ray) that sold for $1K in 2005. It recognizes the disc as a CD and should automatically set the sample rate, right?
I'm really grasping at straws here, my brothers!

 

[OldJBL]

Something like what is linked below should work for determining the power draw of a USB C device.

usb c to usb c power indicator

 

[OldJBL]

It is looking like my theory of the SU1 requiring more than 1 amp is not holding up to scrutiny. Most of what I've read indicates 1a is more than enough.
Also, it appears you cannot measure DC amps without a load. It seems unlikely that a reputable company like Jameco would put out a product that that misses its stated specs.
The Yamaha is a very high quality universal disc player (although no Blu Ray) that sold for $1K in 2005. It recognizes the disc as a CD and should automatically set the sample rate, right?
I'm really grasping at straws here, my brothers!

I think the best way to think of power needs is to use watts as the unit of measurement. This accounts for both voltage and amp specifications in combination. I recently bought a six watt (12v-0.5A) regulated, linear power supply to use with my ZD3 DAC. The PS that came from Fosi is a general purpose 18 watt (12V-1.5A) part. I figured the ZD3 would not draw more than six watts and the 18 watt PS was way more than needed. I have been using the six watt PS for around three weeks and there hasn't been a single issue with it powering the ZD3. This PS has made a very noticeable improvement in sound quality which probably wouldn't be the case if the ZD3 was underpowered. Looking at the size difference between the ZD3, with an OLED screen, and the SU-1, I would gamble that five watts is plenty to power it if your PS is putting out an honest 5V-1A.

 

[saltytown]

#3 arrived today. No big surprise that it does the same thing. I tried a 2.4 amp switching power supply as well as running an extension cord to the power supply to remove it from the same outlet. No change. I have sent an email to SMSL and will see what they say. I'm about ready to pull my hair out.

 

[BruT-804]

FWIW - I have an SU-1 (love it). I also was experiencing dropouts using the Coax from my BluSound Node (N130). Went onto the the BluSound support forum, found another user with a different model SMSL dac with the same problem (Coax dropouts). I switched to Optical input and no more dropouts.
BT

 

[saltytown]

Thanks for your advice. Sounds like an eerily similar situation. I'd like to get the coax sorted since by most accounts the coax has an edge sonically.
Oddly, all 3 units had different rates of cutting out. #3 has the fewest but it's still quite maddening.

 

[saltytown]

Does anyone here know Polish? Here's a post on how to fix a coax problem in a Topping DAC.

SQ5EBO - Topping D50s coaxial mod

Jakiś czas temu stałem się szczęśliwym posiadaczem DAC firmy Topping model D50s. Wszystko działa bardzo dobrze oprócz wejścia coaxial. Wspaniałe urządzenie. Wreszcie znalazłem chwilę czasu żeby przyjrzeć sie tematowi bliżej. Wcześniej czytałem różne fora gdzie ludzie dobierali przewody,żeby któryś

sites.google.com

 

[baked_potato]

Does anyone here know Polish? Here's a post on how to fix a coax problem in a Topping DAC.

SQ5EBO - Topping D50s coaxial mod

Jakiś czas temu stałem się szczęśliwym posiadaczem DAC firmy Topping model D50s. Wszystko działa bardzo dobrze oprócz wejścia coaxial. Wspaniałe urządzenie. Wreszcie znalazłem chwilę czasu żeby przyjrzeć sie tematowi bliżej. Wcześniej czytałem różne fora gdzie ludzie dobierali przewody,żeby któryś

sites.google.com

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[saltytown]

The wonders of modern tech.... I don't know if any of this mod will carry over to the SU1. I get the notion there are some EEs on here who could possibly cross reference. As I said, I'm grasping at straws.

 

[saltytown]

I can report with 100% certainty that the problem is with the coax input of the SU-1. Insertion of the $13 Prozor DAC resulted in perfect playback. Same Jameco power supply, same digital coax, same disc spinner. There is a holiday happening in China presently so I am not expecting a reply from SMSL immediately. But, I sure hope they can offer a fix or a working unit.

 

[oranda]

#3 arrived today. No big surprise that it does the same thing. I tried a 2.4 amp switching power supply as well as running an extension cord to the power supply to remove it from the same outlet. No change. I have sent an email to SMSL and will see what they say. I'm about ready to pull my hair out.

I'm sure this will get sorted. Hang in there @saltytown !

I'm wondering if there is some sort of latency issue with the PCM-encoded output of your Yamaha that is tripping the SU-1. The SU-1 also has muting that kicks in if there is a dead period which I think can be accessed with some effort, though that should only happen during longer dead times. A couple of ideas:

1. Did you try the optical out from the CD player into the optical of the SU-1?
2. Also, have you tried another (somewhat modern) CD/DVD/Blu-ray player into the SU-1?

 

[saltytown]

I don't have an optical cable to try. I've bought plenty of stuff that is collecting dust on a shelf and am reluctant to add an optical cable to that. By all accounts the optical cable will solve the problem but I don't want to compromise on SQ, nor should I have to.
I've been using a heavily modified PlayStation 1 for my CD player. It sounds darn good, but I think there's a bit of resolution left on the table, so to speak. So, no way to get SPDIF out without some tricky soldering to individual pins on an IC. Plus, I like to tinker with electronics and your project was very appealing.
I have a cheapie Blu Ray player that I guess I should fire up. However, it's odd that a $13 DAC outperforms the SU-1.
Upon inspection of the inner workings of the Yamaha I'm very impressed. The disc mechanism has very robust gears and rails as well as a honeycomb top platter that stabilizes the disc. I'm loathe to abandon ship on this player. The build quality puts it the $2K category in today's offerings, IMO.
I'm kind of getting used to the sound of the $13 Prozor but its days are numbered, I'm sure

 

[oranda]

I don't have an optical cable to try. I've bought plenty of stuff that is collecting dust on a shelf and am reluctant to add an optical cable to that. By all accounts the optical cable will solve the problem but I don't want to compromise on SQ, nor should I have to.

I have a cheapie Blu Ray player that I guess I should fire up. However, it's odd that a $13 DAC outperforms the SU-1.

It's just a test to see if the optical signal path doesn't trip things in the same way.
I'm thinking more along the lines of device compatibility which may or may not improve with different translators.. Maybe try the blu-ray player first then.

 

[saltytown]

Makes sense, thanks.

 

[saltytown]

I'm wondering if there is some sort of latency issue with the PCM-encoded output of your Yamaha that is tripping the SU-1. The SU-1 also has muting that kicks in if there is a dead period which I think can be accessed with some effort, though that should only happen during longer dead times.

Oranda, Give the man a Kewpie doll! The cheapo Blu Ray player through the SU1 works perfectly. It sounds pretty awful but at least the music doesn't cut out.
So now it seems I need to choose between the Yamaha and the SU1. I have a technical manual coming in for the Yamaha. Maybe there'll be some info about latency. I've only got $60 in the Yamaha but it's such a formidable machine I hate to abandon it.
It's such a crapshoot trying to find an older disc player that isn't on its last legs. And new transports seem to have their own set of problems.

 

[hearsharper]

Back when I was in engineering school, one of my profs once told the class "if there are no measurements, there is no engineering".

The SMSL SU-1 has a built in switching supply that powers the circuits from the 5V input. If the built in switching supply doesn't put any audible noise on the output of the DAC when powered via a USB port on a computer or dongle, how does an analog 5V supply improve the DACs output? Or is this one of those mysterious things we can hear but can't measure?

View attachment 3493657

If an analog power supply provides so much improvement, why would you stop there and not power the small, low-powered device with a rechargeable battery? It takes less than 1A to power it. A battery would surely be even better than an analog power supply connected to the AC line. A couple 18650 cells, or even 3 or 4 AA alkaline cells will power the DAC for many hours.

But that's taking the easy way out. Anyone truly interested in squeezing the best possible performance out of the DAC would bypass the internal switching supply with batteries. Surely that would offer even more improvement than using an analog 5V supply (or battery) and the internal switching supply. I see +0.9V, +3.3V, +5V, and +/- 12V marked on the PCB. A pair of 3S or 4S 18650s would provide the +/-12V, and a few linear regulators off the +12V battery would provide the other voltages, and probably power the thing for weeks between charges, and surely provide even more improvement in the SQ.

View attachment 3493686

Its better to make the. 5V to 12V boosT and remake 5v. and 3.3v voltages. The crappy PWM will really dislike beIng in parallel.