• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

damping factor

Status
Not open for further replies.
thanks for the interesting replies ..
one simple question how would one measure the damping factor of a solid state cap coupled output amp ? answers without fancy equations preferred ..
 
thanks for the interesting replies ..
one simple question how would one measure the damping factor of a solid state cap coupled output amp ? answers without fancy equations preferred ..
It always requires a simple equation:

Load impedance (like a nominal 8 ohm speaker) divided by output impedance.

Measure the output impedance and you'll find the answer for any load.
 
Exactly like a non-cap coupled amp. Measure voltage with and without load, or drive through a load with a 2nd amplifier and measure the forced voltage. There, no pesky equations.:D
 
so lets get this right where do i measure output impedance ? and is speaker impedance nominal or do i take an average ?
 
so lets get this right where do i measure output impedance ? and is speaker impedance nominal or do i take an average ?
Unless your speaker has ruler flat impedance (most likely not), then you'll have to make a judgement call. Have you ever seen the impedance curve for typical speakers? Let's take one of Ken's NHT speakers as measured by Stereophile. Is the value 5 or is it something over 20? You be the judge! DF is frequency dependent. Most use the nominal (average) impedance as specified by the manufacturer.
 
lets simplify things a bit .. what is the standard of measurement for damping factor ?
i know its output impedance and speaker impedance so is it simply put a multimeter set on ohms across the speaker output ? then the equation with nominal speaker impedance ?
 
Actual measurements always trump math as the math may be based on incorrect assumptions.


Resume means nothing. We caught several on Stereophile, AVS forum who had great resumes, and who provided false information over and over. One was called xxxx the fraud on the Sterophile forum. They all have industry connections. Surprise.

Pass has performed typical measurements done in universities for decades. Pass' experimention and conclusions are correct unless you believe test instruments outright lie by adding extra harmonics.

If the actual measurements differ from the math, then the math is wrong because of false assumptions made.

The only recourse for both of you is to perform the experiment and prove Pass' actual measurements wrong.

Cheers

Pos

I see. So the world is not full of erroneous or irrelevant measurements???

I'm pretty sure you don't want to argue that premise!

-k
 
Unless your speaker has ruler flat impedance (most likely not), then you'll have to make a judgement call. Have you ever seen the impedance curve for typical speakers? Let's take one of Ken's NHT speakers as measured by Stereophile. Is the value 5 or is it something over 20? You be the judge! DF is frequency dependent. Most use the nominal (average) impedance as specified by the manufacturer.

Credit where credit is due... I had nothing to do with the speakers you cite. (Other than helping train some of the engineers who did.)

-k
 
Credit where credit is due... I had nothing to do with the speakers you cite. (Other than helping train some of the engineers who did.)
Sorry. Thought you might have some understanding about the question of damping factor raised.

My mistake.
 
Sorry. Thought you might have some understanding about the question of damping factor raised.

My mistake.

Why must your comments and responses always be so smarmy? I tend to dismiss your comments out of hand....not because you don't raise some good points, but because I just don't appreciate the attitude. AK. All audio, no attitude....
 
Why must your comments and responses always be so smarmy? I tend to dismiss your comments out of hand....not because you don't raise some good points, but because I just don't appreciate the attitude. AK. All audio, no attitude....
Sorry. I read Petehall's question and provided an answer. Suggested that Ken might weigh in on that specific question.

Do you find a response to Petehall's question in Ken's response?
 
Some older tube amps have what appears to be a variable damping factor, yet you say tube amps match the impedance. I recall some of the older Fishers having a feature called Zmatic, does that simply change the output impedance on the output transformers. That same amp also has a switch to select between 8 ohms and 4 ohms for speaker impedances.

Personally I don't know why anyone would want to purchase a SS amp that sounds like a tube amp. Is not the goal of any good amp to not have any sound just to amplify the source? If I want a good SS amp I want it to not have any sound, if I want a good tube amp, I really don't want to hear it either.:D

I think you've misinterpreted what I said, inasmuch as how one defines matching impedance.

Switch or not, there is nothing that precludes one from connecting, for example, an 8 ohm speaker to the 4 ohm tap. But, if you do, one would logically assume you've altered the intended plate loading of whoever designed the amp. Whether or not one believes one way sounds better is a matter of taste. Some like bass at +10, some strive for the flat line response.

As far as the second paragraph, not sure what that has to do with anything but preference. There are plenty of posts to read here on AK that suggest people don't necessarily envison the perfect amp for them as a straight wire with gain.
 
Last edited:
Actual measurements always trump math as the math may be based on incorrect assumptions.


Resume means nothing. We caught several on Stereophile, AVS forum who had great resumes, and who provided false information over and over. One was called xxxx the fraud on the Sterophile forum. They all have industry connections. Surprise.

Pass has performed typical measurements done in universities for decades. Pass' experimention and conclusions are correct unless you believe test instruments outright lie by adding extra harmonics.

If the actual measurements differ from the math, then the math is wrong because of false assumptions made.

The only recourse for both of you is to perform the experiment and prove Pass' actual measurements wrong.

Cheers

Pos

You do realize that Pass' most successful and well known amp design (Adcom GFA-555) used plenty of NFB to achieve a high damping factor, right?

From my lowly technician, non-engineering perspective, the main benefit of a high damping factor is the ability to handle steep dips in loudspeaker impedance.
 
Last edited:
Which is what Pass stated in his article, use plenty of feedback to reduce the distortion, including higher orders. Different designs may require different methods, but some questions need to be addressed.

Is it his best design? Is it a world class amp? What is the cost to performance ratio?

The maximum damping factor is not that great when one considers the dc voice coil resistance. With a direct amp to driver connection, the max damping factor might be 1.3333 or so. Even less with choke and wiring dc resistance. So a low amp output Z offers little if anything.

Cheers

Pos

Best design? I don't know, but it was certainly his most well known and biggest selling. A version of it is still on the market today, nearly 30 years after its introduction.
World class? Absolutely
Considering that it was only five or six hundred bucks new, I would say that the cost to performance ratio was very high.

And to reiterate; the main advantage of a high DF amplifier, in the opinion of this bench tech, is the ability to handle low impedance and/or reactive loads.
 
Last edited:
The maximum damping factor is not that great when one considers the dc voice coil resistance. With a direct amp to driver connection, the max damping factor might be 1.3333 or so. Even less with choke and wiring dc resistance. So a low amp output Z offers little if anything.

Cheers

Pos

And here we have the key to what I believe Mr. Kantor already has alluded to - DCR of the voice coil. Ken, be so kind as to enlighten us in this thread who want to learn something, myself included.
 
OK, I'll try.

Damping Factor is a number that relates the output impedance of an amplifier to the impedance of the load that is connected to the amp. In general terms, the Damping Factor number is the speaker’s impedance divided by the output impedance of the amp, calculated at the resonant frequency of the speaker. The higher the DF, the less the load will influence the amp’s output. Above about 10 or 20, differences between Damping Factors become pretty much irrelevant. An important thing to understand about Damping Factor is that it is a somewhat archaic term that doesn’t have a strict formal definition, just a common usage. Amplifiers that use transformers in their output stage tend to have a significantly higher output resistance than contemporary “OTL” (Output TransformerLess) amps. In this case, knowing the DF might be useful in comparing two amps. However, OTL amps generally have much lower output impedance than transformer coupled amps, and so Damping Factor becomes pretty much irrelevant.

Although the Damping Factor is calculated at resonance, it is often applied over the full operating range. In addition to the minor effect of reducing the effective efficiency of a loudspeaker slightly, the output impedance of an amplifier has a significant effect on the overall frequency response, because it interacts with the varying impedance curve of the loudspeaker*. In a typical case, a high amp output impedance will tend to slightly reduce the bass output below the woofer resonant frequency, (“Fs”), strongly boost the bass near Fs, and substantially reduce the upper-bass and lower midrange. What happens above these frequencies is totally dependant on the individual loudspeaker. Lastly, the output impedance has an effect that lends it’s name to the term. A higher impedance reduces the damping of the speaker’s resonant behavior, leading to some overshoot on bass transients.

Note 1: In my tests, the audibility of small changes in damping is somewhat less than the audibility of the frequency boosting that occurs around resonance but, fortunately, improving one improves the other anyway.

Note 2: It is true that there is already another large contributer to the series source resistance seen by the speaker... the voice coil resistance. However, this resistance is already factored into the response of the speaker during its design. Adding additional resistance upsets the delicate balance of resistance, capacitance and inductance of the speaker motor, leading to unexpected response deviations.

As mentioned, Damping Factor is typically determined and stated in a somewhat imprecise manner, but it always involves dividing the speaker’s impedance by the amp’s output impedance. For example, if the “4 Ohm" tap of a tube amp with an average output impedance of 0.2 Ohms is connected to a 4 Ohm, nominal, speaker, one would state the Damping Factor as, “20.” Using a 16 Ohm speaker on the same tap would give a Damping Factor of 80. What makes this imprecise is that there is no standard way to derive either impedance, and no assurance that the DF at resonance applies over a wide range. While an amp’s output impedance varies somewhat, particularly at the frequency extremes, it usually, (but not always!), does remain constant enough for our purposes. The speaker is a different story. Because dynamic speakers have impedance curves that are quite variable, deriving DF involves picking a single, compromise impedance number for the speaker, at the engineer’s discretion. In almost all cases, the single number that is used is the same as the overall advertised impedance of the speaker;: 4, 8, 6, etc. The differences between this “nominal" impedance and the actual impedance is another factor that makes the stated DF such a fuzzy concept.

So, determining the Damping Factor is easy on paper, but is not that easy for a hobbyist without the means to accurately measure the impedances required. It can be done, of course, but, given the dubious definition and utility of the term, it is rarely considered worthwhile.

-k

*- I built a device to allow product reviewers to test how each amplifier is likely to react to a typical speaker, thus highlighting any the real-world tonal differences users might experience between amps. Stereophile uses this device in many of their amp reviews.

(http://www.stereophile.com/reference/60/index.html and http://bit.ly/ZNzAp5.)
 
Last edited:
You do realize that Pass' most successful and well known amp design (Adcom GFA-555) used plenty of NFB to achieve a high damping factor, right?
He sold a schematic for an amp to be built to Adcom's specific budget. Not terribly different to countless designs he provides free of charge for the DIY community.

With every amplifier he's produced for his own companies, however, you don't find those limitations. The many Threshold amplifiers (far more significant to me than Adcom) were very different. They used minimal amounts of local feedback with zero global feedback. This was done by using better output devices, class A operation and a more sophisticated topology resulting in a far smoother top end. The current Passlabs amps are in yet another level of sonic performance.

Having some damping factor is useful for providing linear response with speakers having a roller coaster impedance curve. It does not, however, require astronomical values.
 
Ken, nice load. How do you feel about the changes they made? Also, if I want to build one, is the DCR of the coils important? Unless they were quite heavy I'd expect it to be a significant fraction of the series resistors.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom