Which media has worse time domain and phase errors? Tape, Vinyl, Redbook CD and HR Digital in play.
Digital vs Audio Formats in Music
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Which media has worse time domain and phase errors? Tape, Vinyl, Redbook CD and HR Digital in play.
Across which octaves? Analog is far truer at the top than Redbook.
You either hear it or you don't. It really doesn't matter to me.
Nothing is good enough for the critical listener.
I draw a distinction between the critical listener, who will most likely be satisfied by Red Book CD done right, and the completely anal listener who can find flaws in anything. I wouldn't be surprised to hear people from that latter group complaining that the violins at the symphony concert had too much phase distortion or that they heard flutter from the oboe section.
Come one, be a lil bit more tolerant to us tin ears. Trained musicians can't tell a difference between an old Stradivarius violin and a new Yamaha. How do you expect me to hear phase errors in 20kHz digital?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtlTJkbUqkA
:wave:
Vinyl has phase problems in the top octave, and its crosstalk performance also goes to pot in the high treble. The phase problems arise from an undamped resonance, a second-order interaction between the effective tip mass of the cartridge and the elasticity of the vinyl groove walls. Good cartridges push this resonance into the 20-40 kHz range; less good ones display it in the top audible octave. Either way it compromises the playback system's phase linearity above 10 kHz.
Too funny. I was thinking the same thing as I read this thread.
As for me, I find it difficult to go backwards in performance that was available decades ago.
Hearing the best Classic Records vinyl on HP's system at Sea Cliff is positively better than any Redbook recording I've ever heard with respect to top end response. He uses a range of EMM Labs players and has a pretty comprehensive library of very nice CDs. The last time I was there, I met Mike Hobson who brought a nice collection of white cutouts.
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And yet, the best analog sounds (not a Shure M91ED on a Dual table) universally more lifelike to discerning listeners than Redbook.
I listen to the end result, not mere *specs* which convey little relevance to that which we experience.
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Where is your source of this information. Research? Link?
Talk to any competent audio reviewer who has exposure to a wide range of gear. Talk to any experienced recording engineer who has worked with both. Visit audio sites that are less 70s receiver/bookshelf speaker oriented.
Listen for yourself on really good gear. Perhaps that is a challenge in your parts.
The link doesn't work. How do I click it?
ofajen
Daddy-O-Daddy-O-Baby
Just an interesting start on this question. I participated in an interesting pro audio discussion on this issue on another forum a couple of years ago. It showed some indication that the pre-echo effect appears to be subjectively more important than phase errors.
Dave Amels has conducted extensive listening tests with both pro and amateur listeners and noted a general preference for first-generation tape recordings in order of lowest phase shift from Stephens first to 3M to ATR to Studer in last place.
Interestingly, though, he says listeners all rate the digital recording systems (ProTools and so on) coming in last after all of the tape machines, even though they have superior phase shift performance, and he attributes that to the imaging perception effects of the pre-echo of the FIR filter.
Of course, even if this is so, what this has to say about Redbook CD audio issues is another matter.
Cheers,
Otto
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robgmn
Super Member
Methinks there may be more than one "cleon" in our midst.
Yesterday, he had to go to bed so his dad wouldn't kick him in the can.
Today, he is an eight grade dropout who is self-taught in the ways of audio and knows that digital audio will soon cease to exist.
Time traveler, perhaps?
BTW-The link provided is blocked by my organization as dangerous.
I also can't access it through a free intranet that I can tap into.
I assume it must be very good stuff.
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You're attempted humor fails again.
robgmn
Super Member
Opinion stated as fact. It wouldn't take a lot of Web searching to find discerning listeners who prefer CD to LP because it sounds more like live music to them. More than a few of them post right here on AK, and most of them have high-end systems that can reveal subtle nuances of performance.
I've tried listening to spec sheets. They make a flapping or rustling sound when you shake them. Not at all musical.
Actually, spell check doesn't correct contextual errors. I changed my response midway and didn't adjust. It should have started:As does your spell-check
Your humor...
As opposed to yours?
Clearly, we have different points of reference.
Would you care to cite say two examples? And what is a "high end system" in your opinion? Does yours qualify?
cleonjr
Super Member
no rob, no time traveler or the sort just a blood filled bag of bones n stuff,when i said my dad i meant my heavenly father,we have an agreement that i try to stay out of trouble. sorry you cant get the link,in my opinion it is very good material. try and search nano.gov you should get some results.
nanotechnology here is a little excerpt i copyed,
""Like electricity or computers before it, nanotech will offer greatly improved efficiency in almost every facet of life. But as a general-purpose technology, it will be dual-use, meaning it will have many commercial uses and it also will have many military uses—making far more powerful weapons and tools of surveillance. Thus it represents not only wonderful benefits for humanity, but also grave risks.
A key understanding of nanotechnology is that it offers not just better products, but a vastly improved manufacturing process. A computer can make copies of data files—essentially as many copies as you want at little or no cost. It may be only a matter of time until the building of products becomes as cheap as the copying of files. That's the real meaning of nanotechnology, and why it is sometimes seen as "the next industrial revolution."
My own judgment is that the nanotechnology revolution has the potential to change America on a scale equal to, if not greater than, the computer revolution. — U.S. Senator Ron Wyden (D-Ore.)
The power of nanotechnology can be encapsulated in an apparently simple device called a personal nanofactory that may sit on your countertop or desktop. Packed with miniature chemical processors, computing, and robotics, it will produce a wide-range of items quickly, cleanly, and""
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