Digital vs Audio Formats in Music

[Pandovski]

You got digital speakers?

No, I mean DACs, DATs, CDP, SACD, DVD-A.

The process where digital file is converted into analogue electric signal for playing music versus how its done with magnetic tape and vinyl?

Which one reproduces the original recording carried by the format more faithfully? Not which one sounds more like live music and all that mantra. Which one is reproducing music as is on the file/CD/tape/LP without adding or taking out?

 

[cleonjr]

hey all antics aside,,it is a blast talking with you guy's,havent learned like i usually do but it has been fun anyway.the original discussion hopefully has been considered and noted and no disrespect to sm19422,,i thought it was a very astute forum with the debate going off track somewhat. but it was still good for what it was. ok i will say my amp is digital because it has chips and info on those chips makes it digital is that correct?

we do need to get back on track though but i think analog is just what it is just like collecting vinyl it is just a feeling more than a reality anymore..uh oh look out....

 

[cleonjr]

It was most certainly a patent infringement and I'll repeat - it is not a switching design, aka digital. It's simply an AB amp with a sliding bias that keeps it into the class A range most of the time.


Most attenuators work best between 12:00 and 2:00. When you are forced to attenuate the signal too much, the impedance match is not ideal

do you mean like the marantz pm series amps that actual switch,,yea i know that pioneer has some too,i dont think technics has any that actualy use the switching circuit.

 

[Pandovski]

More hiss, pops, clicks, wow, flutter, noise, distortion, lower resolution, deterioration, loss with duplication, ... you name it. Analogue musical formats have it more than digital by far.

I have a CD with Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (Columbia) and it has lots of tape hiss, wow and flutter. Its AAD and everything up to the D took away from the original sound and added dirt. D just reproduces it as is. Same with ripped vinyl in 24/96. It sounds like vinyl playing through my digital setup, with all the pops, clicks, wow, flutter, noise etc.

Why would I put up with that? Its rubbish. Of course because the music is good, I will adapt to the artifacts. But sonic merits? Seriously?

With every passing day there is less Miles Davis on the original tape and more "analogue". God bless DIGITAL for saving it forever! :ntwrthy:

 

[cleonjr]

i wish my 2 syncro bias class a buddies would pop in to help me defend technics honor.they would set the records staight. g,night yall, b back on the morrow.ooohhh that dinner is riding high were is guy machetti with the rolaids.

 

[river25]

Chips don't necessarily mean it is digital. Op amps are not digital. The musical signal will eventually be converted to analog to feed your speakers.

As I stated in a previous thread in a previous time, the analog signal is the most pure. Digitising this analog signal can mimic close to analog, and no doubt close enough for our ears to determine the quality of sound is good. However, the issue with analog is how to save it on a noisless medium, which will not introduce artifacts, and play it back with the same purity of the original source. If we can ever find a way to do that I can see no requirement for digitising.

 

[JimPA]

Cleonjr some digital amps convert the PCM signal to PWM and some derive the PWM from an analog signal which are analog controlled Class D.

 

[matteos]

More hiss, pops, clicks, wow, flutter, noise, distortion, lower resolution, deterioration, loss with duplication, ... you name it. Analogue musical formats have it more than digital by far.

The pops and clicks are usually minimal if vinyl is taken care of and your record player is setup correctly... And it does take a lot of tinkering, I had excessive noise on my records for a good 4 months leading me to clean my vinyl over and over and wonder why it was so noisy. I realised I had overlooked the VTA feature on my record player. So I spent a little longer balancing the arm, adjusting azimuth, cartridge alignment and finally the VTA. End result the noise went away, it is dead quiet except on the dirty thrift store vinyl.

Wow, flutter and rumble is a complete non issue on my TT, I've never heard any of it.

Deterioration... I've got Miles Davis from the 1950s that plays perfectly.

If you take the time to look after your records and take the time to set it up right and tinker... Vinyl is awesome.

 

[Pandovski]

Chips don't necessarily mean it is digital. Op amps are not digital. The musical signal will eventually be converted to analog to feed your speakers.

As I stated in a previous thread in a previous time, the analog signal is the most pure. Digitising this analog signal can mimic close to analog, and no doubt close enough for our ears to determine the quality of sound is good. However, the issue with analog is how to save it on a noisless medium, which will not introduce artifacts, and play it back with the same purity of the original source. If we can ever find a way to do that I can see no requirement for digitising.

By turning music into numbers and not magnetized scotch tape or plowed plastic it is keeping it in its purest form. Mathematics and Music are like two sisters one smart brunette and one beautiful blonde. Digital is having those two sisters together... I mean its good, trust me.

 

[blackfly]

Funny how so many do not take medium deterioration into the equation. Good sound is of no good if they no longer make cartridges to pick it up or tables to spin it on. Ditto for tape. Once digitized, and in the "net" it can be used for eternity. Computer standards always change, but so long as music forms are compatible with computer, it is forever.

I genuinely forsee the day LP is no longer made and tape is a lost word, simply because the PHYSICALITY of the formats is such they have no longevity. Perhaps sonics is not the real factor.

 

[E-Stat]

Not which one sounds more like live music and all that mantra.

Yeah, that thing about listening to live, unamplified music is overrated, isn't is? LOL!

 

[matteos]

How long do mechanical hard drives last for? I think back on all the computers I've owned.. Average life is 5 years, if that.

Digital is only as good as long as you back it up. CDs don't last any longer than records if they last that long at all. I have my digital backed up, but if both hard drives got knocked out before I re-copied it... Then it would all be gone. I would have to re-rip and/or rebuy everything unless I pirated copies. I don't do itunes because I want everything redbook quality. It's a myth that digital lasts for ever. I bet in 50 years there will be no hard drive sold today still functioning... But my 1950s vinyl... I bet it still plays.

 

[Pandovski]

In 100 years people will study us in books and our listening on physical media will be like watching the Flintstones from today's perspective. It will be the diametrically opposite of considering analogue media to be pure.

 

[E-Stat]

Once digitized, and in the "net" it can be used for eternity. Computer standards always change, but so long as music forms are compatible with computer, it is forever.

And for a period of about three decades, we forever lost the former resolution of the best analog methods for all music. Are you aware that the Wizard of Oz using "dated technology" is being re-released in hi-rez?

I genuinely forsee the day LP is no longer made and tape is a lost word, simply because the PHYSICALITY of the formats is such they have no longevity.

Using the high rez format that is used for recording today is the key. Not continuing to dumb it down to Redbook or horribly compressed MP3s.

 

[river25]

If only the smart brunette wasn't limited in how many decimal places she could define

I understand you and what you are saying. I love my CDs. They are clear and wonderful. I listen to many CDs and have way more CDs than LPs.

All data conversions come at a cost. DACs and ADCs add their own nuances and impurities. Now, I admit I am talking down to the nth degree of accuracy, and no ADC or DAC will achieve this.... but they mostly do it well enough for our ears.

In essence, for our ears, there is nothing wrong with the sound of a good CD. It is a wonderful medium with a sound quality that can mesmerise and tantalise (assuming, like LPs, the mastering was done well in the first place).

So, the real answer is "for our ears a good CD is wonderful" but digital can never duplicate the purity of analog.

 

[billw]

My 2 cents... EVERY storage medium has it's limitations. It is up to the end user to decide which set of limitations he/she will tolerate and/or embrace with enthusiasm!! Sometimes with great pride and fanfare!! Loudly proclaiming your personal choice of these flawed mediums will (in my not vast experience) do little to convince others to change their made up minds. Offering your logic is an exercise in futility. You can silence a person but you can't change their mind.
Many, if not most, here have experience in more then one medium and they have chosen their preferences based on their personal experiences; the only way to change that is give them more experiences!
And this 2 cents is just another persons opinion; not worth the 1's and 0's it took to send it!!
YMMV
billw

 

[E-Stat]

In 100 years people will study us in books and our listening on physical media will be like watching the Flintstones from today's perspective.

Absolutely. Even the antiquated by today's computer technology standard CD-ROM storage limitation will no longer drive limited resolution.

 

[Pandovski]

Yeah, that thing about listening to live, unamplified music is overrated, isn't is? LOL!

You got me now!

@Matt

Think of it like classical music before we ever had any way to store music onto something. We can still play Beethoven today regardless we never heard his original performances because his music is converted to a program, a language, musical notes.

Same is with digital but even further. You can print it on punch cards, make dots on a roll of paper with a pen, keep in on mechanical hard drive, SSD, whatever. The numbers are forever, if we have the code we can reproduce it every time perfectly. Digital has no physical limitation. And it will reproduce the actual artist playing.

Each time a master tape is reproduced the next generation is worse and worse. It deteriorates with time, its soon unplayable. Eventually the magnetic tape that has the original Kind of Blue will be so frail and deteriorated, if they play it on a machine it will fall apart. it will only be a museum piece.

 

[4-2-7]

Funny how so many do not take medium deterioration into the equation. Good sound is of no good if they no longer make cartridges to pick it up or tables to spin it on. Ditto for tape. Once digitized, and in the "net" it can be used for eternity. Computer standards always change, but so long as music forms are compatible with computer, it is forever.

I genuinely forsee the day LP is no longer made and tape is a lost word, simply because the PHYSICALITY of the formats is such they have no longevity. Perhaps sonics is not the real factor.

What if there is no power/ Energy to run the computer? Or lack of resources/Energy to make the computer.:yes:

 

[4-2-7]

How long do mechanical hard drives last for? I think back on all the computers I've owned.. Average life is 5 years, if that.

Digital is only as good as long as you back it up. CDs don't last any longer than records if they last that long at all. I have my digital backed up, but if both hard drives got knocked out before I re-copied it... Then it would all be gone. I would have to re-rip and/or rebuy everything unless I pirated copies. I don't do itunes because I want everything redbook quality. It's a myth that digital lasts for ever. I bet in 50 years there will be no hard drive sold today still functioning... But my 1950s vinyl... I bet it still plays.

True! and no one is looking at the resource needed to make the CD. Like it will be around forever. NOT