Do different turntable brands & models really produce different sound quality?

[patient_ot]

$100 is not a lot of money in today's market. The market now is very different from what it was 5-10 years ago. A lot will depend on your local area and what is available. If you need shopping help, you're going to have to post more info. Do you have any stereo equipment whatsoever or are you starting completely from scratch? Need more info. Also approximately where are you located (metro area?)? Are you mechanically inclined? Can you work on electronics and solder?

 

[halkaloogie]

So you're not supposed to ask questions on these forums? lol.

I don't have any particular audiophile knowledge to share, so I came here to learn from others.

Don't take it seriously, it's not personal, it's just that we can be a little rough sometimes around these parts.

If you're really interested in the endless pit that opens up when you get into records, I'd start really simply.

First thing you need to find out if your current setup is capable of playing records. Do you have a phono preamp in whatever gear you already have? If not you'll need to factor that into the price. It doesn't need to be expensive or fancy, but is needed. Once you figure out that, I'd look through the classifieds (Craigslist, Facebook, offer up, and whatever else you have access to) if you find something that looks interesting come back to the group and ask for advice on it.

When you're just starting out, a lot of the little stuff doesn't matter. You just need to get your feet wet, and the best way to do that is to just jump in. For $100, you can absolutely find a very playable table, and if after a while get the urge to upgrade, then you already have a starting point.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Sarcasm ON... All turntables sound the same so send me your Thorens and Technics 1200's and I will send you a brand new SoundDesign or Lloyds, you pick which. Bearing tolerance, Tonearm construction, motor accuracy and isolation are just Hifi mumbo jumbo. Sarcasm OFF.

Neither for even my least system are fit for purposes. Too rumbly, run too fast, and the rest of my equipment show their weakness very well. A point, my late Stepfather used to own a Fisher 400 receiver, a pair of Olson Radio coaxial speakers, and got a Realistic LAB BSR built plastic platter cheapie, in a plastic base. That BSR sounded horrid through that system. The Garrard SL-95B which replaced it (same Shure M 75 EJ on both) performed much better. When the Fisher 400 had output transformer failure, I gave Stepdad a Kenwood receiver. And later on, a used pair of EV Sixes.

 

[Wagonmaster1]

Don’t worry about anyone that isn’t helping. Some people forget about the humble beginnings.

I’m still learning everyday and learned something new from this wonderful thread that you started with your questions. I learned that it’s possible to get fantastic results from a table that can be found for under 2k. Sounds crazy but I didn’t think it was possible.

Thought about your questions and the more I thought about it, I am leaning towards a pioneer PL - 4, 5 or 7. They have a graphite arm that’s light and rigid. Works well with high compliance cartridges. Delivers great results for the price. Made in Japan. Can be found from $79 to $130 or so when I last bought. A little bit of a sleeper but that’s a good thing.

And welcome to AK. Lots of helpful folks. Put the negative ones on ignore. It’s reversible but sometimes a good option to avoid poor replies.

Please let us know what you find when you decide. Good luck!

Do you really think a Pioneer like that would be much of an improvement on my current system? I have a Sanyo TP B3 right now, and my plan is to run out the needle and buy a new record player once this one's shot.

If I upped the budget to $250, what would be your recommendation?

 

[pyoung272]

You do not want to run out the needle as you may cause permanent damage to your records.

 

[MitsuMan]

Do you really think a Pioneer like that would be much of an improvement on my current system? I have a Sanyo TP B3 right now, and my plan is to run out the needle and buy a new record player once this one's shot.

If I upped the budget to $250, what would be your recommendation?

No I don’t think the PL-5,7 would be much of an upgrade if at all. They are very similar designs and both from 1980-81’ I own two PL-7’s and a PL-8 just so you know.

Upping your budget to $250.00 is a step in the right direction. But as others have said it comes down to what is available on the used market in your local area. IMHO, that’s not a number that will give you a bonafide chance of picking up a quality TT on eBay. Find a local audio buff that is willing to take you under their wing and help you find something that you are happy with that is in your budget. If you lived near me I’d give you one of my PL-7’s to try and would set it up for you. There is bound to be someone in your area who is willing to do something similar.

 

[jrtrent]

Do you really think a Pioneer like that would be much of an improvement on my current system? I have a Sanyo TP B3 right now, and my plan is to run out the needle and buy a new record player once this one's shot.

If I upped the budget to $250, what would be your recommendation?

Turntables have parts that degrade or wear out over time, such as motors, platter bearings, arm bearings, suspension parts, and power supplies. With your 'table being over 40 years old, it's possible that any new turntable might prove to be an improvement. One possibility I find interesting, though I've never heard one, is the Fluance RT80. They have a 30-day trial period so that you can use it in your own home and return it if you don't like it.

"We're so confident you'll love your Fluance product, we offer a 30 Day Risk Free in Home Trial period within the contiguous United States and Canada. If, for any reason, you're not satisfied with your purchase, simply return it within the trial period for a full refund. We’ll even cover the return shipping!" https://www.fluance.com/30-day-risk-free-in-home-trial

If it were me, I'd be doing some comparison shopping before your current stylus is worn out; that way you can compare and see if the money spent results in improved sound quality.

 

[desertrat748]

Do you really think a Pioneer like that would be much of an improvement on my current system? I have a Sanyo TP B3 right now, and my plan is to run out the needle and buy a new record player once this one's shot.

If I upped the budget to $250, what would be your recommendation?

Didn’t know you already had something. Sounded like you were just starting out. Don’t know anything about the Sanyo but as earlier said, you probably won’t notice a difference.

For $250 things open up but it’s getting close the new/modern vs old 1970s or 80s used.

Honestly I think you should spend some time with setup. Finding out what you notice and think makes a difference. Maybe a second cart and see if you notice a difference or what you prefer.

It’s going to take awhile to figure out what you like vs what others prefer. Slow down and enjoy the learning experience.

 

[Pio1980]

Stylus tip wear is a "boiling-a-frog" slow deterioration of performance with groove tracing gradually deteriorating over time. Replacing a worn stylus tip will by itself improve results.

 

[jrtrent]

Stylus tip wear is a "boiling-a-frog" slow deterioration of performance with groove gradually tracing deteriorating over time. Replacing a worn stylus tip will by itself improve results.

That might depend on how much time is on the stylus. Many people here have reported that a stylus actually sounds better after a "break in" period of 20-50 hours. If the OP is using the stock cartridge, which looks to be an AT93 type with conical stylus, anything over 300 hours might cause deteriorated sound (AT estimates conical stylus life at 300-500 hours; I've been happy replacing them at 400 hours).

 

[halkaloogie]

Do you really think a Pioneer like that would be much of an improvement on my current system? I have a Sanyo TP B3 right now, and my plan is to run out the needle and buy a new record player once this one's shot.

If I upped the budget to $250, what would be your recommendation?

What is your motivation for wanting another turntable? At lot of time an upgrade will show almost no improvement unless the rest of the system is capable.

What else is in your system? Once that is established, then it can be established if an upgrade is your best option.

Stylus tip wear is a "boiling-a-frog" slow deterioration of performance with groove gradually tracing deteriorating over time. Replacing a worn stylus tip will by itself improve results.

Replacing a worn stylus will give new life to an old table, and doesn't have to cost a lot, there are a number of very usable options that can be had for less than $50.

As with most things, you can quickly get to a point of diminishing returns in audio gear.

What's your ultimate goal with your system?

 

[timmy.timmy]

Do you really think a Pioneer like that would be much of an improvement on my current system? I have a Sanyo TP B3 right now, and my plan is to run out the needle and buy a new record player once this one's shot.

If I upped the budget to $250, what would be your recommendation?

To begin with turntables or tonearms don't "produce" sounds. They are 'passive' in the signal path. Cartridges, preamp, amp and speakers are 'active' wth the signal and so "produce" or said better participate in the sound definition. But those first have a 'sonic signature' of their own. That can be more or less distinctive but very much open to subjective preferences and fierce debate (LOL). And a brand only of turntable FWIW can't be better than another one. And any phono chain either expensive or not can be coherent not to need to upgrade major bits in there.

Not knowing exactly why you seem to think that your turntable alone could dramaticaly improve in one stroke your whole playback I would maybe seek first for another better (more lively) cartridge and stylus combo (those on yours are not looking sexy at all I agree). But that Sanyo TP B3 begs for a tiny P-mount cart so maybe you'll have to seek another turntable altogether that could take a "universal" headshell to fit it with a cheap but good cart to begin with like an entry level AT91 for example. That could leave you with $200 for a decent turntable to pick up.

Or seek a rurntable with a better old cart (like a Shure - we dig !) and keep enough budget to secure a new replacement stylus (many good to better makers for the classic Shure's M44, 55, 75 and 91) for anything between $20 to $50 (this max is sadly my minimum ear preference) that's why I suggested a humbler'N'cheaper AT91 to begin with. That AT's weak some in bass but very lively on cheaper system as well. Take time to learn some on cart/stylus compliance to match with tonearm's effective mass though. That match in regard of performance is crucial.

 

[Bone Yard]

One of the reasons I like audio equipment is there so many possibilities especially in the mid-fi world most of us live in. Turntables, just like any audio equipment, usually get better with pricing. The parts are better made, the movement is more fluid and smooth with just the right amount of resistance. The good ones are high-precision moving tools balanced perfectly, the bad ones can be junk and sound like it. I'm a semi-collector of the cool 70's portable turntables, some of these are beautiful but the sound is horrendous and the internals just have the bare-minimum needed.

Turntable sound was always a hot topic in the 70's throught the early 80's. Straight tone-arms, bent tone arms, linear tracking were all thrown out as the latest and greatest. Internal electronics, shielding and soldering are different across brands along with quality of the plinth and overall weight. I once knew a guy that only talked about the RCA jacks plating quality but there some truth if the jacks get corroded or don't fit nicely.

$100 bucks is going to get you what you already have, expand that a few times and you'll open up a bigger world and maybe find a bargain.

 

[jlovda]

I bought a very nice Dual 1219 for $25 with an ADC cartridge at a flea market. I usually have very bad luck there find a good deal. I put a Shure M75 on it. Keep looking. Dual turntables are great.

 

[likebike23]

I bought a very nice Dual 1219 for $25 with an ADC cartridge at a flea market. I usually have very bad luck there find a good deal. I put a Shure M75 on it. Keep looking. Dual turntables are great.

I've had good luck finding cheap Duals also (1019,1214,1215,1218,1229). I think they are cheap because none of them worked right due to dried , gummy grease. If you can fix them yourself then you can get a nice table cheap.

 

[kirk57]

To begin with turntables or tonearms don't "produce" sounds.

True, but they surely can and do mask signal. The better the turntable/tonearm, they less is masked.

 

[mkane]

speed stability is key to better sound.

 

[SterlingOne]

Turntables with better design and with more precision in manufacture can simply get more music out of the groove than a lesser player. Linn Products used to explain it something like this: The only thing that makes sound from the cartridge is the relative movement of the cantilever to the cartridge body, and information in the record groove can be measured in millionths of an inch. Any slop in the main bearing, tonearm bearings, tonearm mount, cartridge/headshell interface, etc., results in loss of information because the wiggles in the groove no longer result in that movement of the cantilever, but is lost to movement in parts that should be rigid. For example, removable headshells, rubber "isolation" blocks, nylon headshell screws, etc., are design features that reduce the rigidity and performance of tonearms.

A question becomes at what price point you get the kind of precision quality that will really make a difference. In Stereophile's survey of several budget cartridges, they included a $9000 turntable/tonearm setup from Feickert as well as models from Linn, Pioneer, and Technics. Part of their conclusion was, "On the Linn LP12 and the Dr. Feickert Blackbird, the Audio-Technica AT95 sounded dramatically more controlled and powerful, more nuanced and sophisticated, than it ever did on the Pioneer PLX-1000 or that stoop-sale Technics SL-1200 I modified in GD9. On the Blackbird-Schick deck, these so-called entry-level cartridges played recordings with a layered, three-dimensional complexity that I thought was impossible at these price points. Quiet musical passages were not only quieter; they were filled with magic little details that got noised over, dulled over, or disappeared entirely on the Pioneer and Technics 'tables." https://www.stereophile.com/content...nica-goldring-lp-gear-phono-cartridges-page-2


The least expensive turntables that impressed me as getting more musical information out of the groove than others at their price points are models from Rega, and, I think, mostly on the strength of their tonearm quality. I don't think you'll find something like that at the price point you're looking at, but the good news is that music can be enjoyed on much less costly equipment. I have Audio Technica's cheapest model, the LP60X, in my bedroom, and I get a surprising amount of pleasure out of this $139 turntable.

I believe my Technics SL-1210GR, as well as my Sony PS-4750 get everything out of the groove, sounding lifelike from a Shure V15 Type III/JICO SAS-B. What precludes this means to recorded music pleasure from being the best means is the poor quality control of vinyl these days. My last 6 purchases are all defective in some manner.

 

[Tstar]

So you're not supposed to ask questions on these forums? lol.

I don't have any particular audiophile knowledge to share, so I came here to learn from others.

Don't be put off by negative responses. Most of the members here are more than happy to share their knowledge and experience. After all, we were all new to the world of audio once upon a time.
And in answer to your original question, there can be an amazing diff in the quality of sound between different tables. There is a video, I think on Youtube, where Michael Fremer compares a multi-thousand dollar turntable to a Technics direct drive table with the same cartridge. The difference in the purity of the music from one to the other is nothing short of a revealation!

 

[timmy.timmy]

True, but they surely can and do mask signal. The better the turntable/tonearm, they less is masked.

Very true. And Oh ! so crucial to me once I got to witness that home in direct comparison to realise how a turntable drive and build can change the whole playback rendition. Even far beyond what one's fantasy can be on THE right turntable to actually own. But to enjoy to listen to as well. That evidently with the tonearm's build, coupling or decoupling on the turntable's chassis that will 'open' or 'close-in' the cartridge signal before the preamplification stage to please or not the listener's earbuds. Because not everyone prefers the same 'sonic signature' nor can hear the same things there. But then for one to get further down any road one will have to spend more than $250 there to get a real good playback with enough precision and amplitude. One has to start "small".

The "better" for a turntable or tonearm is a bit of a meaningless terminology in any case. Beyond specifications like speed accuracy and constancy and rumble silence through the motor, there's plenty of room for one's preference in looks, playback and handling. For example it took me that long to realise that my fantasy beliefs of what was all that I wanted was not a direct drive of the sturdiest kind for turntable (like the Techies 1200's & Co. that I use to own for very long) but actually a wobbly belt drive old thing like a humble Thorens TD160... Never before prior to have been like "staged in" trialing that turntable fitted with a SME3009 tonearm home I'd have believe to own such a turntable never to look back. And by now I've heard all kinds of drive systems. My heart is set.

The direct drive turntables tend to have a 'closed-in' (= masked) sonic signature. The idler drives less but still more than belt drive on suspension. The suspension design is a big part in that but that's where the belt drive is the most efficient coupling. Idler drive on suspension is not as efficient as belt drive and direct drive even less in comparison. Now each drive system have their flaws, drawbacks and advantages accordingly. But for home use in evenly suitable conditions they're all about even beside each preferences. Occasional dee-jay I get to play my records out on Techies 1200 or alike with my own cartridges and do hear all ovr again everytime the "closed-in" or almost "muffled-down" sonic signature of them. Because them platter are over dampen from the coupled motor.

Helping friends with their phono set-ups I get to inherit, fix, sort-out and re-assemble phono set-ups from many different 'ends'. Once I got in a Kenwood KD550 turntable and once tested I was rather pleased to hear it's 'opened-up' sonic signature. Then searching about it on the web I read about it's inventive design about the platter/direct drive motor assembly 'chamber' allowing this specificity. And although not as 'opened-up' as any belt drive on suspended chassis design it's something I bragged about when I installed it at a good friend's place. This is what I love to learn and discover through such empirical experimentations and trials ; discovering unexpected combinations and results in playback from gear that otherwise I would only have disregarded. Amen +