Do different turntable brands & models really produce different sound quality?

[Wagonmaster1]

What is your motivation for wanting another turntable? At lot of time an upgrade will show almost no improvement unless the rest of the system is capable.

What else is in your system? Once that is established, then it can be established if an upgrade is your best option.



Replacing a worn stylus will give new life to an old table, and doesn't have to cost a lot, there are a number of very usable options that can be had for less than $50.

As with most things, you can quickly get to a point of diminishing returns in audio gear.

What's your ultimate goal with your system?

I have Yahama NS-8s, with a rather underwhelming Yamaha AVR.

I replaced the stylus about 6 months ago just to prevent it from wrecking my records. I have an equally underwhelming Stanton D51 replacement stylus.

Would a better cartridge provide a noticeable difference in audio quality? I really want a brighter sound than I have now and some better imaging too.

 

[timmy.timmy]

I have Yahama NS-8s, with a rather underwhelming Yamaha AVR.

I replaced the stylus about 6 months ago just to prevent it from wrecking my records. I have an equally underwhelming Stanton D51 replacement stylus.

Would a better cartridge provide a noticeable difference in audio quality? I really want a brighter sound than I have now and some better imaging too.

Your Sanyo TP B3 turntable could be fine (that only) but the P-mount cart and stylus are certainly the weakest bit in your chain. The problem now with your turntable-tonearm-cartridge combo is that the tonearm is made to be fit on your cartridge and likely not much else.

And the tonearm is part of that turntable. Another turntable that could take a "inoversal' headshell and so take a wider range of cartridges would atready allow you to chose another cartridge. And yes another cartridge will hopefully take your playback experience to a higher level instantly.

With what you have Yamaha there an AT91 cart + stylus will give all the energy you're lacking here I am certain. It's cheap enough to prove an affordable trial whil leaving enough budget for a better turntable. The AT91 high output can deal rather good with so-so preamp stage and powerful digital amp with the volume set high with low distortions.

 

[Ken Boyd]

To begin with turntables or tonearms don't "produce" sounds. They are 'passive' in the signal path. Cartridges, preamp, amp and speakers are 'active' wth the signal and so "produce" or said better participate in the sound definition. But those first have a 'sonic signature' of their own. That can be more or less distinctive but very much open to subjective preferences and fierce debate (LOL). And a brand only of turntable FWIW can't be better than another one. And any phono chain either expensive or not can be coherent not to need to upgrade major bits in there.

Not knowing exactly why you seem to think that your turntable alone could dramaticaly improve in one stroke your whole playback I would maybe seek first for another better (more lively) cartridge and stylus combo (those on yours are not looking sexy at all I agree). But that Sanyo TP B3 begs for a tiny P-mount cart so maybe you'll have to seek another turntable altogether that could take a "universal" headshell to fit it with a cheap but good cart to begin with like an entry level AT91 for example. That could leave you with $200 for a decent turntable to pick up.

Or seek a rurntable with a better old cart (like a Shure - we dig !) and keep enough budget to secure a new replacement stylus (many good to better makers for the classic Shure's M44, 55, 75 and 91) for anything between $20 to $50 (this max is sadly my minimum ear preference) that's why I suggested a humbler'N'cheaper AT91 to begin with. That AT's weak some in bass but very lively on cheaper system as well. Take time to learn some on cart/stylus compliance to match with tonearm's effective mass though. That match in regard of performance is crucial.

Think you not completely informed on that, Turntables add plenty of sounds to the mix and that is the problem, their are probably no tables that do not add any sounds. From drive motors, bearing noise, and resonate frequencies they will add plenty to the mix. Only a perfect table could not add sounds, and I don't think their is such a thing.

The better the table the less they add, and not adding any extra sounds to what the cart picks up is a very difficult task to produce.

 

[SaSi]

The stylus, indeed, makes a huge difference. Conical styli won't read as much detail as an eliptical, which in turn is worse than a hyper eliptical, shibata or fine line.
And the cart the stylus is mounted to makes a big difference. Some are just better at frequency response, channel separation, clear sound, etc.
And of course, the cart isn't flying on thin air, but is mounted on a tonearm. The tonearm needs to have appropriate mass to match the cart giving a favorable resonance frequency for the "sytstem" or tracking will suffer. And the bearings on the tonearm need to have miniscule friction to allow the tonearm to follow the groove under the influence of the stylus riding in it. And don't forget tonearm geometry. Some have it wrong and are worse than others.
And, of course, the tonearm isn't itself resting on thin air. It's rigidly mounted on the top part of the turntable or plinth, with a motor whirring below, causing vibrations that can and will reach the platter and the tonearm. And the plinth is sitting on a shelf or desk where it can pick up vibrations from people walking around or the speakers themselves. So, an isolated plinth makes a difference. As does the way the motor is mounted internally. And the mass of the platter as well as they way it's mounted (sub-chasis over springs, high mass, etc.).

So, there are a lot of variables in a mechanical system that is influenced both by internal and external sources of unwanted events. The way such a system is designed, the materials and way it's put together make the differences.

And to give you two extreme examples:
In my youth, I mounted an expensive (for me at the time) Stanton 681-EES cartridge to a Dual 1009. It didn't sound good, it tracked awfully and I preferred the lowly M44MG cart that came with the 1009. That same cart sounds just great on a Technics SL-1210.
Back in 2008, when I came back to listening to records, I scored a Revox B791 that came with an Ortofon MC20MkII and an MC step up transformer, all for the price of 250 euros. The sound was - and still is - phenomenal. It was my first moving coil cart and I never knew what I didn't know - how nice they can sound.

 

[halkaloogie]

I have Yahama NS-8s, with a rather underwhelming Yamaha AVR.

I replaced the stylus about 6 months ago just to prevent it from wrecking my records. I have an equally underwhelming Stanton D51 replacement stylus.

Would a better cartridge provide a noticeable difference in audio quality? I really want a brighter sound than I have now and some better imaging too.

So you've got a passable set of speakers and a run of the mill amp, and an entry level turntable that works and has a new cart.

Take my advice how you want, but with what you have, I wouldn't worry about trying to upgrade your turntable.

We all started somewhere, and you've begun by throwing together a working system, which is great. But it's a collection of random items, and as such won't be able to give you much difference in a slightly better turntable. That's not a slight to you, it just means that your money would be better spent on something else.

If it was me, I'd save up and hunt for a nice dedicated 2 chanel amp. It doesn't need to be fancy or expensive, but something that sounds good and is reliable. From there, you'll have a good starting point for upgrading other parts of the system as you see fit.

Good power and speakers are the backbone of a stereo system. I'm not familiar with those Yamaha speakers, I've had a handful of NS's, and they can be great speakers, but I don't know anything about those. If you're happy with them, then you've got a good start.

 

[timmy.timmy]

Think you not completely informed on that, Turntables add plenty of sounds to the mix and that is the problem, their are probably no tables that do not add any sounds. From drive motors, bearing noise, and resonate frequencies they will add plenty to the mix. Only a perfect table could not add sounds, and I don't think their is such a thing.

The better the table the less they add, and not adding any extra sounds to what the cart picks up is a very difficult task to produce.

No actually I'm fine with my unerstanding of it all. Hopfully as I tweak on my own and others phono gear. But thank you for your concern if ever. Now if one's turntable makes overwhelming sounds one's indeed in trouble. As long as one can hear clearly and only what the cartridge retrieves from the record's groove one should be fine. Even though playback is always a compromise.

Nothing's never pure in musical reproduction anyways. Here I was only trying to clear things up like it is the cartridge that reads the record's groove and not the turntable. A turntable won't on it's own read a record's groove without a cart and stylus that will also need further amplification before a speaker... The whole phono chain participates into all of that but not on the same technical front.

And so a turntable and tonearm should before anything else allow the cartridge signal to be transmited to the preamp. That only hopfully (once again) through silent bearing's friction with little dampened materials here and there to counter air as solid borne vibrations that could pollute the micro volt signal through thin wirings. Then after and beyond that there's turntables and turntables and more different turntables...

 

[twiiii]

Tone arms make a big difference with your favorite cartridge. Tone arm resonances can really color the sound. Better turntables today if mounted on a stable platform perform very well today. But if they are some how mounted to a cabinet or stand on a suspended floor you can have all sorts of issues depending on the sophistication of the arm and the turntable suspension. We all can't afford the SME 60 so thats why I keep my TD 125, It doesn't matter if a garbage truck, UPS truck or fire truck go over a speed bump I do not hear a thing. Now the M L 515 TT has a bit of an issue some time, but not always. Its basically an updated prime Signature with Fat boy Carbon arm with gimbaled tone arm pivots with electronic speed control. So no trucks the ML sounds better, but with trucks going by or doors closing in the house the Thorens does a better job. They both use very similar 20 series Dynavector HO cartridges.

 

[curtpenn]

Dual522

• curtpenn
• Jul 30, 2022

I've had good luck finding cheap Duals also (1019,1214,1215,1218,1229). I think they are cheap because none of them worked right due to dried , gummy grease. If you can fix them yourself then you can get a nice table cheap.

Found an as new Dual 522 with OEM Ortofon ULM55 cartridge locally on CraigsList (Dallas) last week for $150. Still can't believe how good it sounds. You could spend 2-3 times as much and not hear much difference, IMHO. Deals are still out there.

 

[HPMguy]

To the OP -- if you have a Stanton/Pickering cartridge, get a good elliptical stylus for it. Voice of Music has several that work very well, either for the TLE or TL-1 (Pickering) or Stanton equivalents -- don't remember the Stanton version of the 500 for P-Mount, but the TL-1 equvalent is one of the 7x7 series.

The cartridge is the same, so any stylus that will track at 1.25 gr will work, and the better the stylus the better the performance.

There is nothing at all wrong with P-Mount cartridges unless the table is damaged, they are just non-adjustable. Only real problem is that some aftermarket styli are a millimeter or too too long, easy to adjust a standard mount, but you can't move anything in a P-mount! Otherwise, they are exactly the same as the 1/2" mount cartridges.

Sadly the days when you could pick up a top of the line used turntable for peanuts are gone. The revival of vinyl over the last decade got everyone interested again, and good tables go for big money. New ones as good as the "vintage" tables from the early 80's run into the multiple thousands of dollars.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

The stylus, indeed, makes a huge difference. Conical styli won't read as much detail as an eliptical, which in turn is worse than a hyper eliptical, shibata or fine line.
And the cart the stylus is mounted to makes a big difference. Some are just better at frequency response, channel separation, clear sound, etc.
And of course, the cart isn't flying on thin air, but is mounted on a tonearm. The tonearm needs to have appropriate mass to match the cart giving a favorable resonance frequency for the "sytstem" or tracking will suffer. And the bearings on the tonearm need to have miniscule friction to allow the tonearm to follow the groove under the influence of the stylus riding in it. And don't forget tonearm geometry. Some have it wrong and are worse than others.
And, of course, the tonearm isn't itself resting on thin air. It's rigidly mounted on the top part of the turntable or plinth, with a motor whirring below, causing vibrations that can and will reach the platter and the tonearm. And the plinth is sitting on a shelf or desk where it can pick up vibrations from people walking around or the speakers themselves. So, an isolated plinth makes a difference. As does the way the motor is mounted internally. And the mass of the platter as well as they way it's mounted (sub-chasis over springs, high mass, etc.).

So, there are a lot of variables in a mechanical system that is influenced both by internal and external sources of unwanted events. The way such a system is designed, the materials and way it's put together make the differences.

And to give you two extreme examples:
In my youth, I mounted an expensive (for me at the time) Stanton 681-EES cartridge to a Dual 1009. It didn't sound good, it tracked awfully and I preferred the lowly M44MG cart that came with the 1009. That same cart sounds just great on a Technics SL-1210.
Back in 2008, when I came back to listening to records, I scored a Revox B791 that came with an Ortofon MC20MkII and an MC step up transformer, all for the price of 250 euros. The sound was - and still is - phenomenal. It was my first moving coil cart and I never knew what I didn't know - how nice they can sound.

While the stylus is true. There's another variable. That Shibata, Stereohedron, or MicroLine stylus needs a given level of tonearm, with enough adjustable options to perform best. I own a Dual 1019, it had a Shure V 15 Type II installed. It made music, but that cartridge was out of the happy match just enough for my needs. I installed a Shure M 55 body, with a N44-7 stylus, it's dialed in, sounds so much better. I learned this from young. Moderation. My Technics can be happy and flexible with the Stanton, the Shure middle of the line, and the V 15 Type II.

 

[doctor fuse]

Inversely, it is probably possible to get similarly spec’d turntables (table, arm and cartridges) sounding fairly similar.

 

[Spinning45s]

There are many variables that affect the quality of a turntable such as the resonance of the platter, tone arm length, and the method used to maintain the correct speed, and good and bad can come in all models and brands. I'd recommend finding a book on high fidelity and reading the reviews of the new ones, but at your budget, you might want to consider a used turntable which makes a book on hi-fi even more essential.

 

[Lapslah]

I used to have the same thoughts as the OP. The actual table is just a platform, right? As long as it's performing properly and not introducing wow, flutter, rumble, or other extraneous noises, what difference can it possibly make?

Then I started upgrading parts of my TD124. When I added a thick, solid brass main bearing cap, for example, it made a clear difference in presentation. Everything was tightened up. The noise floor went down. Attacks were more snappy. It was clear that some slop in the chain had been removed. Bear in mind - a TD124 is a solid machine to begin with; not sloppy at all. But it DID tighten up. So if one part of a table can make such a big difference, how much of a difference would a completely different table design make? I'm convinced.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Your Sanyo TP B3 turntable could be fine (that only) but the P-mount cart and stylus are certainly the weakest bit in your chain. The problem now with your turntable-tonearm-cartridge combo is that the tonearm is made to be fit on your cartridge and likely not much else.

And the tonearm is part of that turntable. Another turntable that could take a "inoversal' headshell and so take a wider range of cartridges would atready allow you to chose another cartridge. And yes another cartridge will hopefully take your playback experience to a higher level instantly.

With what you have Yamaha there an AT91 cart + stylus will give all the energy you're lacking here I am certain. It's cheap enough to prove an affordable trial whil leaving enough budget for a better turntable. The AT91 high output can deal rather good with so-so preamp stage and powerful digital amp with the volume set high with low distortions.

Agree, turntable and it's tonearm the weak point, in a system which needs this next level or two upward to get it sounding right. Then you have a baseline. One weak link gone. Listen with it at this next stage and live with it.

 

[desertrat748]

Agree, turntable and it's tonearm the weak point, in a system which needs this next level or two upward to get it sounding right. Then you have a baseline. One weak link gone. Listen with it at this next stage and live with it.

This^! And it’s not really hard to find some of the late model Japanese tables on the cheap with a great tonearm at least a step above most others. I’m liking some of those graphite arms on the pioneer models like pl-7, or at least what I can hear from mine. Some of those upper level JVC tables have some great design in them. QL-7. Some came with both straight and S.

 

[Pio1980]

Some will hear significant differences, other may hear no differences at all.
To the discriminating ear, everything matters and everything has an influence on the result.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

This^! And it’s not really hard to find some of the late model Japanese tables on the cheap with a great tonearm at least a step above most others. I’m liking some of those graphite arms on the pioneer models like pl-7, or at least what I can hear from mine. Some of those upper level JVC tables have some great design in them. QL-7. Some came with both straight and S.

I have another great point. Stick to S armed, stick to standard head shells, you can get from multiple vendors. Avoid at this stage, too outside of normal at this stage . You want something with freedom of choice, close enough to common standards. And maintainable. Pioneer graphite arms are not it. Electronic servo arms are not it.

Mechanical automatic, simple, good does do this. You want what Japan, Inc did best. You want close to normalcy. For now. Later you can specialize. Technics SL-D2 a great starting place, or something close to it. Well built enough, substantial enough. Good enough. The most for the least expense.

 

[PabloX]

I have another great point. Stick to S armed, stick to standard head shells, you can get from multiple vendors. Avoid at this stage, too outside of normal at this stage . You want something with freedom of choice, close enough to common standards. And maintainable. Pioneer graphite arms are not it. Electronic servo arms are not it.

Mechanical automatic, simple, good does do this. You want what Japan, Inc did best. You want close to normalcy. For now. Later you can specialize. Technics SL-D2 a great starting place, or something close to it. Well built enough, substantial enough. Good enough. The most for the least expense.

How are Pioneer graphite arms not maintainable?

 

[MitsuMan]

How are Pioneer graphite arms not maintainable?

They have replaceable headshells, and they lock in via a screw. But the headshells only work on that series of early 80's Pioneer decks, i.e., PL-2 through PL-8 and maybe the PL-9. They are proprietary design and have a kind of dovetail groove in the headshell that fits over two "rails" that are molded into the end of the tonearm. That said, I have a PL-7 I bought new in 1982, and have a PL-8 that is in use in my office system. They just aren't as universal as some of the other suggestions that Kent offered. Personally, I'm hoping to find a PL-9 someday. If I could get Butch (@beej ) to turn loose of one.

 

[desertrat748]

I have another great point. Stick to S armed, stick to standard head shells, you can get from multiple vendors. Avoid at this stage, too outside of normal at this stage . You want something with freedom of choice, close enough to common standards. And maintainable. Pioneer graphite arms are not it. Electronic servo arms are not it.

Mechanical automatic, simple, good does do this. You want what Japan, Inc did best. You want close to normalcy. For now. Later you can specialize. Technics SL-D2 a great starting place, or something close to it. Well built enough, substantial enough. Good enough. The most for the least expense.

I agree with the S arm and the ease with 1/2” headshells. But, there’s too much bang for the buck with the straight graphite arms and the ability to deal with high compliance carts when you need it. I don’t particularly like how the speed controls are set up on my pl- tables that aren’t quartz locked (JVC invention btw) nor the platter bearing setup because they are easily damaged by shipping when sellers refuse to pull the platter. But the arm delivers and that was your point to start with.