Do Speaker Cables Make a Difference? Science Weighs In.

[House de Kris]

Is that on your "boombus" outdoor system where you've got a really long run?

HA! Good memory RayW. But, no, this is on my indoor system where I attempt to push the limits of the cutting edge. The outdoor systems' goals are not for the ultimate in fidelity, but rather ultra fun. The outdoor systems use more pedestrian sized cables and standard connectors.

Thanks for remembering the boombus, makes me think people actually read what I write here!

 

[RayW]

HA! Good memory RayW. But, no, this is on my indoor system where I attempt to push the limits of the cutting edge. The outdoor systems' goals are not for the ultimate in fidelity, but rather ultra fun. The outdoor systems use more pedestrian sized cables and standard connectors.

Thanks for remembering the boombus, makes me think people actually read what I write here!

Yeah, I remember it being a fair bit bigger than my boomboxa rustica. Did you ever get the echo effect figured out in the field? I recall repositioning being discussed but I don't remember a solution being posted.

Back on the topic at hand...You're the first person I've seen using bigger than 4ga. I've seen a few at 4 but nobody bigger. With the L and C of the cables minimized by their size, have you done any checking to see if positioning of the cables is audible/measurable? Of course I don't mean that the number of curves the electrons need to negotiate to get from amp to speaker, but positioning in proximity to power lines (in walls), other equipment, lights, etc. Lights are notoriously noisy, electrically speaking. An induced signal coming from something like that could conceivably cause a change in the AC parameters of the speaker cable that could creep up into audible territory if we're talking .3dB.

I have no experience with this directly but when talking about differences in cables, minutia have to be accounted for.

 

[House de Kris]

Back on the topic at hand...You're the first person I've seen using bigger than 4ga. I've seen a few at 4 but nobody bigger. With the L and C of the cables minimized by their size, have you done any checking to see if positioning of the cables is audible/measurable? Of course I don't mean that the number of curves the electrons need to negotiate to get from amp to speaker, but positioning in proximity to power lines (in walls), other equipment, lights, etc. Lights are notoriously noisy, electrically speaking. An induced signal coming from something like that could conceivably cause a change in the AC parameters of the speaker cable that could creep up into audible territory if we're talking .3dB.

I have no experience with this directly but when talking about differences in cables, minutia have to be accounted for.

I'm sorry, I must not have written too clearly before. I was responding to ambient's picture of a spool of 3ga, saying I should try it as I'm currently using wimpy 5ga. The fellas you know using the big boy 4ga certainly have me beat in this race. I'll strive for clearer posts in the future.

Yeah, I remember it being a fair bit bigger than my boomboxa rustica. Did you ever get the echo effect figured out in the field? I recall repositioning being discussed but I don't remember a solution being posted.

No, still haven't taken my recorder and gun out to the field yet. I still intend to do that, and plan on posting the measurements in the other thread when I actually have them in hand. Stay tuned.

 

[SicMan]

just a note: read the article and all the posts... :thmbsp:
When I refurbed the IRS Betas, I was running #8 fine speaker wire. At higher listening levels I was getting alot of noise... come to find out it was a cheap light dimmer above my system in the kitchen. When at a dim setting the the harmonics sent out by the chopped AC to the bulbs was causing the problem. I found this when my wife turned the lights on in the kitchen when I was testing an amp and the noise happened all of a sudden. Even my extra refrig. in the basement causes noise in my KT8300 tuner.
I run Infinity Q3's (2 sets) and I can hear clicks and pops when high current stuff comes on in my house. I have a separate run from the main box to my audio area so most of it is probably RFI or line noise I assume.
OH and yes I tried the 24 gauge wire too and .... "no comment" :thumbsdn:

Thanks for the article/s

 

[89grand]

I'm not really sure if just experience is required to post comments in this forum, or if you just need to be in agreement to post, but I've had three different speaker wires in my main setup, first I had just generic 16 gauge wire, then some generic 12 gauge and now some Sewell Silver Back 12 gauge cables. I heard absolutely zero difference between them.

When I got the Sewell cables, I took the 12 gauge wire I had been using, and swapped out the 16 gauge wire I was using in my secondary computer setup, that 16 gauge was different than the 16 gauge in my main setup, and again, I heard zero difference.

I recently bought a t-amp and a class D amp, and those sound very similar to each other, but I did hear a difference in some detail between them and a SS amp I have, so it's not like I can't hear well enough to detect differences when they're present.

I also think my systems are revealing enough to hear differences if they're audible. To me, in my systems, changing wire made no difference. I'm not about to go hunting for wire that possibly does, so as it sits, my experience says the wires I've used sounded the same.

 

[RayW]

I'm sorry, I must not have written too clearly before. I was responding to ambient's picture of a spool of 3ga, saying I should try it as I'm currently using wimpy 5ga. The fellas you know using the big boy 4ga certainly have me beat in this race. I'll strive for clearer posts in the future.

D'oh! Not your writing, my reading comprehension is to blame. Ok, you're still up in rarified air. Care to comment on the positioning relative to power issue?

No, still haven't taken my recorder and gun out to the field yet. I still intend to do that, and plan on posting the measurements in the other thread when I actually have them in hand. Stay tuned.

Same Bat-channel.

 

[cwall99]

I've actually heard that speaker, at an AK Fest, no less. Since I've heard it, therefore I have experience, and can post my opinion. In this forum, experience is the rule. Those that want to pass weak, mocking jokes will find themselves on the outside looking in.

The admins have the power to ban, forum specific.

Yeah, what was that? Three years ago? Or four? I spent a lot of time listening to the Giyas at that event and talking to the guy who was demoing them. You remember the speaker cables he was using? Craziest cables I've ever seen.

The actual cable was suspended somehow in the center of a transparent sleeve, about two inches thick. The guy demoing the system told me the sleeves were filled with helium. Not sure how much they contributed to the overall sound of those speakers, but I thought they sounded pretty amazing.

Interestingly, though, I heard a lot of chit-chat from people in the rooms who seemed thoroughly underwhelmed by them, but I loved the way they sounded. There's a dealer here in he Detroit area, though I don't think he keeps a pair of Giyas in his showroom.

 

[Urizen]

Yeah, what was that?

2010. I auditioned with my own music and enjoyed listening to them. Looking at them? Not so much.

 

[RayW]

I liked them ok but there were others that I enjoyed more. I seem to remember some killer amps in that room but can't recall what they were.

 

[cwall99]

2010. I auditioned with my own music and enjoyed listening to them. Looking at them? Not so much.

They do have a look that betrays their roots in the minds of the guys who designed the B&W Nautilus. I kinda like 'em though as they strike me, as the Nautilus do, as a great example of form following function.

I wouldn't mind lookin' at 'em if they were, oh, about 12 feet away from me in my listening room... And if my listening room had enough room to create a proper soundstage.

 

[shelby1420]

I recently decided to upgrade the Nordost Blue heaven ( about 5 years old) to the Red Dawn LS and must say for the first hour or so thought I had made a very bad mistake.............. the next 3 proved to me I had not............ Cleaner and much more of an accurate sound then the Blue Heavens, so yup, for me, they make a difference!!!

 

[House de Kris]

I'm not really sure if just experience is required to post comments in this forum, or if you just need to be in agreement to post....

I've read this comment a couple of times now, and I'm not quite sure if it is a genuine comment or a sarcastic comment. I'll assume it is genuine, and offer my sincere thoughts. I'm not the moderator of this forum, or any forum for that matter, but I don't think you must be in agreement with the original poster to post in a thread here. I think experience is emphasised here to help weed out the the mindless posts from people who make statements that are just repeating what they've read or heard elsewhere. Just making comments without personal first-hand experience doesn't help the conversation of the thread to progress in a meaningful manner. Examples would be some guy says his brother works with a guy who's uncle is an avionics engineer and he says all cables are the same for speakers. Or, the joker who posts a link to ol' Rog's speaker cable gauge chart without further comment. Neither example is posting any information that is useful to the readers.

You, 89grand, have had personal experience in comparing cables and (in my opinion) is quite valid to share. In fact, I think it is good to share experiences that may be a bit contrarian to the direction of the post. This helps with keeping a thread balanced, giving it greater appeal to all. MikeT. gave a very nice post about comparing cables complete with a brief impression of a number of cables in his system. But that was just his experience, I wouldn't expect to have the exact same experience in comparing the same cables in my system, but I can appreciate the enthusiasm he had when tackling the problem of finding the pinnacle of performance in his system. Some of us find this fun, others don't. MikeT. also made a good point about trial of cables before plopping down money. I haven't met a hi-fi dealer yet who wasn't open to loans to established clients. In my opinion, Best Buy is not a hi-fi dealer.

In an effort to strike a bit more balance, I have a number of systems that I've tried a variety of cables in, and can't claim I hear a difference. But, in my very best systems, the effects of changing speaker cables is indeed audible. Since this is The Cutting Edge forum, I ignore my lesser systems where all cables sound the same, and offer experiences only related to when differences are heard on systems who's goal is to push the limits of audio technology. It's my choice to filter the information I share, but I don't think there is anything wrong with making a post that is not totally in agreement with the original poster's topic. I may be wrong on this, and I encourage moderators to tell me one way or the other.

 

[Billfort]

In an effort to strike a bit more balance, I have a number of systems that I've tried a variety of cables in, and can't claim I hear a difference. But, in my very best systems, the effects of changing speaker cables is indeed audible. Since this is The Cutting Edge forum, I ignore my lesser systems where all cables sound the same, and offer experiences only related to when differences are heard on systems who's goal is to push the limits of audio technology.

That's it - exactly.

I too have systems where wire makes little if any difference (IMO) but the system I post about here; yes, wire matters.

 

[robgmn]

I'm still hoping someone can explain why they would WANT various wires to sound different.
Isn't it the wires' job to deliver the signal to the speaker exactly as it is emitted from the amplifier without adding or subtracting anything?

I've read quite a bit about the "straight-wire" engineering of equipment, along with such things as cable-risers, elimination of tone controls, anti-equalization musings, thousand-dollar USB cables, etc., all being used in an effort to keep the signal from becoming muddled in some way.
Then, the discussions arise about different cables (be they $10 or $10,000) having their own sonic signature.

I think a cable should be like the glass in a window SHOULD be: crystal clear, adding nothing, subtracting nothing, allowing you to see exactly what is on the other side of the glass.
If it alters it in any way, there is something wrong with it.

If the cable alters the electrical signal in any way, there is something wrong with it.

As for re-wiring a speaker with special wiring: Why?
Do you think the engineer didn't know what they were designing and just cobbled a bunch of crap together and hoped it would sound good?

I personally doubt it.

 

[dumptruck]

Do you think the engineer didn't know what they were designing and just cobbled a bunch of crap together and hoped it would sound good?

I think the engineer designed and tested the speaker using the wire they were using. Those internal runs are generally far too short for anything to be likely to make an audible difference (and often are connected to AN INDUCTOR), but regardless the wire becomes part of the crossover no matter what "crap" you use. Imagine saying to a person that designed some $500 home speakers "you know if you had used 12-gauge silver wire, with amps having output impedance over 0.2Ω you would have gotten -0.12dB around 100Hz and +0.34dB around 19kHz. Why didn't you do that?". It's ludicrous. It's like asking why they didn't use door handles that are 10g lighter on the Honda Civic. Because it would not be a better car, it would just have lighter door handles.

 

[RayW]

I'm still hoping someone can explain why they would WANT various wires to sound different.

I don't think anyone (here) said that thaey WANT wires to sound different. Many have said that they do sound different so you pick the ones that best compliment your system.

 

[pete_mac]

I'm still hoping someone can explain why they would WANT various wires to sound different.

It's not a case of 'wanting' anything... but given that cables DO sound different in my experience (and in the experience of others), this allows one to use cables to act as the sonic 'icing on the cake' for one's system. Synergy and all that jazz.

EDIT: D'oh... my post pretty much paraphrases Ray's post above

 

[Pandovski]

I'm still hoping someone can explain why they would WANT various wires to sound different.
Isn't it the wires' job to deliver the signal to the speaker exactly as it is emitted from the amplifier without adding or subtracting anything?

I've read quite a bit about the "straight-wire" engineering of equipment, along with such things as cable-risers, elimination of tone controls, anti-equalization musings, thousand-dollar USB cables, etc., all being used in an effort to keep the signal from becoming muddled in some way.
Then, the discussions arise about different cables (be they $10 or $10,000) having their own sonic signature.

I think a cable should be like the glass in a window SHOULD be: crystal clear, adding nothing, subtracting nothing, allowing you to see exactly what is on the other side of the glass.
If it alters it in any way, there is something wrong with it.

If the cable alters the electrical signal in any way, there is something wrong with it.

As for re-wiring a speaker with special wiring: Why?
Do you think the engineer didn't know what they were designing and just cobbled a bunch of crap together and hoped it would sound good?

I personally doubt it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3reSQn8ANK8

 

[JBL GUY]

Pandovski, now that is funny.

 

[Billfort]

Ha ha.

Please take the comedy acts elsewhere guys - we get to discuss these things in this forum - wire humor seems to have a real home at AK but it is not welcome in TCE.

Thanks.