shelby1420
Enjoying the music.....
Thanks Bill!!!:thmbsp:
Do Speaker Cables Make a Difference? Science Weighs In.
- Thread starter Urizen
- Start date
Thanks Bill!!!:thmbsp:
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We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread.
Lest you think the mods in here are playing fast and loose with the rules, especially the one about needing experience with the subject at hand, please think again. Their enforcement of rules and policy, with respect to this forum, and all of AK, have the full support of the admins and site owners.
We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread.
robgmn
Super Member
What I meant was that I don't understand why it's ACCEPTED that there are so many speaker wires that have their own sonic signature.
It's a total lack of standardization which flies in the face of the so-called drive for "accurate reproduction" of the original performance.
If you only have to select from a possible 2 amps that sound different, 2 speaker wires that sound different, 2 preamps, 2 carts, 2 sets of speakers, 2 patch cables, you have 64 different systems you can build that will all sound different from each other.
If all are different, only one can be "right", and even then, maybe not.
I think the real-world combinations must be in the millions or dozens of millions by now with all of the equipment that is out there (new AND vintage).
I wonder who has the right one (remember, I'm talking accuracy of reproduction, not a subjective taste judgement)?
Accepting the fact that two different $5K speaker wires can/do sound different from each other when their sole purpose should be to deliver the signal to the speakers exactly as it comes from the amp seems contradictory to the whole concept of "Hi-Fi" to me.
It makes it seem more like a complete crapshoot than anything.
(For another thread, but I feel the same way about TT carts. How can you call two carts "accurate" when they sound entirely different from each other? Would you call you PC accurate if it gave you different answers every time you ran the same spreadsheet?)
pete_mac
Super Member
The same could be said for sources, amps, speakers etc.
In theory, they 'should' should sound the same.
But, they don't. Some sound similar, some very different. Part of the challenge of audio reproduction is finding a combination of source, amp, speaker and cables that synergizes and compliments each other.
It all comes down to the definition of accuracy. There was a thread a few years ago in speakers that attempted to flesh this out but it got really contentious and was ultimately closed. Anyway, the problem with defining accuracy in audio is that it is a multidimensional array of variables. Two cables that are the same "distance" from that ultimate goal may be off in different directions. Maybe one has higher capacitance that rolls off the highs a bit and the other has a higher DC resistance which will tilt the entire response. They are both inaccurate by the same degree but compromises mean that those inaccuracies manifest in different ways, ergo different sounds. Which is more inaccurate, a frequency anomaly or a time anomaly? It's an unanswerable question as asked.
Take that example and multiply it for differences in amplifiers and preamps. Throw in some exponents for speakers and cartridges.
Take that example and multiply it for differences in amplifiers and preamps. Throw in some exponents for speakers and cartridges.
I wonder why they just don't take some measurements? That should solve it.
:scratch2:
:yes:
The guy at the Hi-Fi store measured 3ft of the AUDIOQUEST cable before I bought it. That was all the measurements I needed.
Jeffrey may or may not have been sarcastic with that statement. We shall never know.
Ah, here come the measurement brigade. Wrong section of the forum gents! This is a scope and sig-gen free zone.
Jeffrey may or may not have been sarcastic with that statement. We shall never know.
Ah, here come the measurement brigade. Wrong section of the forum gents! This is a scope and sig-gen free zone.
Just as I'm happy to trust my ears when it comes to discerning the differences between amps and speakers, I'm happy to do the same when it comes to cables.
My reply was tongue-in-cheek. I should have put some smilies in there. Oh, wait...
Robgm is the measurement brigade, I'm the "I don't give a ****" attachment.
pete_mac
Super Member
Sorry mate, there was no 'winking' smiley so I assumed you were serious.
It's all good.
They don't have a winking smilie. You can cut and past the :wink: smilie from the "Post Icons" below and attach that as an , but it's sort of a pain when discussing something as mundane as speaker wire.
[img]http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=452679&stc=1&d=1378012612
Attachments
Rocjr
Active Member
I think you're making an assumption that the goal of all hifi hobbyists is accuracy. It is for some, and for some of the professional pundits. However, anyone in this long enough knows that it's not possible at this time. It's my opinion based on hearing some of the most ambitious systems imaginable that none of them are accurate. None sound like the real thing, if that's what you mean by right. Neither the big power complicated systems nor the flea powered minimalist ones. Putting accuracy aside, most systems are just meh. Some are good. Few are magic. Even the ones that can be magic can be just eh on certain days. All that takes is high humidity and everyone on the grid cranking their AC. See ya later magic. So, accuracy? Forget that. Entertaining? Possibly.
Cables:
I've put together a system that meets by basic needs. I want a deep, wide soundstage. I don't want pinpoint imaging because I've never heard that in live music. I want tonal density- robust upper bass/lower midrange. The sound has gotta be round, man. I want more than that but I want those things first as they are necessary for my listening pleasure. Those are the ground rules for "me" to be entertained.
Cables ARE my tone controls. Right only pertains to what works. I'm fortunate to have a few friends with unlimited audio budgets. I don't! But, what that means for me is that I get to try out, with zero pressure to purchase and rarely a time limit, lots of cables. Different combinations can tune my system from ripe/overly warm, to bright and difficult to enjoy. Given choices, there will be a winner. The closest thing to right is ultimately a compromise of virtues. If you know what's what, you give in and enjoy.
However, none of this might be apparent to someone with vintage box speakers with fretwork grilles and grille cloths like grandma's winter curtains. Oh, and those speakers straddling a massive wall unit. I'm not saying that's you...
In the end, cables are part of a system, not something unto itself. Nothing in a system is perfect or close to it, regardless of claims made otherwise.
Also, you are correct. It's a total crapshoot.
The difference can be measured, but like the author said, the difference is small enough to where it can be measured with the grill on the speaker, and the grill off the speaker.........................
You mean this part:
House de Kris
Loud-n-Deep
Ideally, that is indeed its job. Unfortunately, there is nothing in our known universe that can convey a signal without loss. Well, super-conductors come very close, but still will have loss. Plus, I've never got to use super-conductors in the home for speaker cables.
Whoa, hold on there buddy. Take a seat, breath deeply, try to relax. There's no need to air your laundry list of gripes relative to audiophilia. This thread is very narrowly about the measured differences in speaker cables and their audible effects.
As a side note, this has been quite a good cable thread. It wasn't until page 5 that someone brought up the price of cables. Usually, this is a quick knee-jerk reaction, but it did take quite a long time for it to come up this time. Thus, a relatively good thread.
Usually, I dislike the analogies that people bring up to prove their point. Most often, it involves an analogy to automobiles. But, I think I actually like your pane of window glass analogy here. Sure, to the pedestrian, a pane of glass can look crystal clear as they pass by it and glance through it. But, when you look very closely, you realise that the previously judged crystal clear glass does, in fact, distort the image as it passes through it. With careful measurements, you can find that no glass is completely distortion free. It is that sort of microscopic view of performance (and adherence to accuracy) that this thread and article it links to is about. Likewise, for the person who wishes merely to play air-guitar to Freebird, all speaker cables sound the same. But, when you start paying attention to the details, you realise that all speaker cables may sound different. Yeah, I'm liking your window glass analogy.
All cables have loss, thus alter the signal. By your definition, all cables are wrong. OK then, how do you propose we get our stereos to work?
Because that's the real-world results or the effects of the law of physics. You can accept it, or you can stomp your feet and yell. In the end, speaker cables will continue to have their own sonic signature.
Ah, the old "combinations and permutations are stacked against us" aurgument. In the standard Design of Experiments methodology, you can make a few quick comparisons and easily determine what paths NOT to go down. This will elimiate millions upon millions of the combinations that are possible, so you don't have to actually compare each and every combination. Plus the reality that you won't be able to get your hands on an example of each and every piece of audio gear ever designed will eliminate millions and millions more combinations. In the end, you do the best with what you've got.
It would be nice if a speaker cable could deliver the signal to the speaker exactly as it comes from the amp, but it doesn't. Please read the article linked in the opening post. Again, why are you hung up on price of cables? You mention two different $5k speaker cables, are the rules different for two different $4k speaker cables? Or even, two different $40 speaker cables?
What, have you got something against the game of craps?
Ah, here come the measurement brigade. Wrong section of the forum gents! This is a scope and sig-gen free zone.
Perhaps you didn't read the title of this thread or the article linked. It is about science and measured performance of cables. Measurement tools are necessary for this. Personally, I'm a huge objectivist. Over the past 30 years of my job, I've spend many many accumulated months in a lab measuring cables. It was my personal experience in the lab measuring the differences in cables that led me to form the notion that believing all cables sound the same would be borderline insanity. Then, personal experiments in my own home, often using the same cables I've measured, allowed me to hear for myself that different cables do indeed sound different. The article linked at the first of this thread is basically objective support of the subjective experience. Lots of people, like robgmn, ask why cables could possibly sound different, and shouldn't they be the same. The article offers objective measurements that differences do indeed exist. If each of us can hear these differences or not, is as individual as fingerprints. But the point is, every cable will have an effect.
rnorton
Super Member
Seems unlikely to me
To me, that article makes it plausible that you might easily get broad-band (more than an octave) differences of 0.1-0.2 dB - if you're really familiar with a system and the music, that's plenty to hear a difference. And I don't think they're capturing everything - I'm not sure that steady-state measurements capture everything that's going on with transients. I'd love to have seen a broader suite of measurements.
That said, a very interesting read - thanks for posting, Ken.
.2 dB differences can't be detected reliably by humans. Not even close.
rcspkramp
Super Member
I thought the test was interesting, but too narrow in focus. I'd like to see more testing done on say, one dielectric material vs. another, solid core vs. stranded, silver vs. copper, one geometry vs. another, etc. I think if any of these additional tests revealed differences then those differences could become cumulative on top of the gauge only test and lead to what might be bigger audible differences. Just thinking out loud here.