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Fisher 500C restoration and modification project

Tim - Thanks for your input. I agree. Really seemed likely when the symptom was that 'drop out'. I carefully applied a drop of contact cleaner on the contacts with the shaft. I couldn't bring myself to give the tuner a 'shower' of cleaner as I hear could be done. No effect.
 
I will measure voltages and hope to find help here and somehow get to a normal 500C.
No change in the situation, but I measured voltage.

Here's the data: no antenna, etc

PhQjlD8.png


Numbers in parenthesis are found on the schematic. Red numbers used to show large deviation. I'm sorry now I never ordered a 6GK5. It drives the relay. Not suprised that measuring a voltage in this string could afffect sound, but it was notable that this measurement sounded just like the symptom I heard last night when dialing up past 97 MHz. (Remember that was a variable threshold. Where the dropout occurred was not consistent. There is no dropout any more, just terrible quality reception above about 97 MHz. Maybe that's progress? Thanks to all for your attention. -c
 
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Day -- A couple of comments for you:

1. Be sure to observe the conditions under which voltages are taken in the tuner section when comparing your results to the schematic values. That is, No antenna, no signal. Dial pointer set to extreme left hand setting. Selector on FM Automatic. This does make quite a difference versus that when receiving a station, as under that condition, AVC voltage is developed and current draw goes down, so voltages go up. Set as prescribed, current draw is at a maximum, so voltages are lower. The difference is significant.

2. There is nothing "audio" anywhere in the tuner except at the output of the Ratio Detector transformer, where all audio begins. For the audio to be good at one end of the dial, but not at the other at the very least implies a possible alignment issue -- or poor oscillator tracking. That is, if the IF frequency is shifting, or the Ratio Detector transformer is aligned clear to one side of the IF strip, then that might give you the conditions you're observing. It sounds like a full A-Z alignment is in the works.

One thing also to make sure you do is to always troubleshoot in FM Mono mode. That way, any goofiness that might be going on in the MPX section that might contribute to the sound quality issue is removed from the equation.

Dave
 
Thanks, Dave. I re-measured under no signal conditions and loaded the revised table into post #22. Now measuring voltages on the diode array under those conditions and with signal received.

Done -
No signal; Dial to far left; Stereo automatic
Voltage where CR2/CR3 cathodes are joined; 117V
Voltage where R88/R89 are joined; 62V
Voltage where R93/R94 are joined; 124V
Antenna connected; Station tuned in, Stereo automatic
All voltages remain the same! :-( ?
 
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The voltages that change between that of receiving a station and no reception are mainly plate and screen B+ related.

If there is still significant DC at the output of the ratio detector, then look for local influances like florescent lights, wall warts, and/or digital devices radiating a signal into the receiver.

Dave
 
Also remember that if your RF/iF section is generating such a low signal strength reading, then conditions within the tuner section aren't changing all that much between tuned and no signal conditions to cause any significant voltages changes.

Dave
 
Dave - I'll check detector output first thing in the morning. Schematic shows that diode matrix changing a lot between no antenna no station and receiving a station. Should I be worried at no change? EDIT Our messages crossed or I might not have asked this. Well, I forgot to hit send and then later didn't see the followup you sent.
 
Day -- If you're referring to the diode audio switching matrix circuit -- those voltages will inherently change significantly from a no signal to MPX signal condition: With a no signal condition, the matrix automatically defaults to a mono state, since clearly no 19 kHz pilot signal would be present then (Stereo Beacon off). This produces the primary set of schematic voltage readings for this circuit. On the other hand, a second separately set off set of voltage readings is also indicated at certain points in the matrix circuit when a Stereo MPX signal is present (matrix has now changed to a stereo state, Stereo Beacon on), which (obviously) requires a Stereo MPX signal to be received and tuned in for the matrix to respond to. So the voltage swings in that circuit will be significant between a no signal and Stereo MPX signal condition.

Dave
 
Here is a report on voltages at C85 (detector). I'll report voltages starting at left extreme, where the minimum voltage was found, then give max- min-max-min.. etc up the dial.

-8 V left extreme
-25 V 88.3 MHz
-16 V (pretty crowded with distant stations in this area)
-26 V 88.9 MHz
-11 V
-25 V 90.3 MHz
-13
-25 V 91.3 MHz
-12 V
-21 V
-12 V
-25 V we're at 93 MHz here
-16 V
-26 V
-15 V
-25 V 96 MHz
-18 V not much of a valley here
-21 V we're at 98 MHz here
At 98 MHz the hissing background begins, and at 100 MHz a motorboating appears, not loud but obvious, that motorboat speed rises continuously as we go up to 108 MHz.
From 98 to 108 the voltage only varies up and down between -23 V to -25 V.
Above 98 there are no minimums or valleys like the ones so clear below 96 MHz.

That's the news this morning! I'm afraid it does look a lot like an alignment issue. But I'd love to hear any test that might reveal otherwise. Don't want to go there unless I'm sure.
Thanks! -d
 
It certainly sounds like the RF section is oscillating at higher frequencies. It's rare, but I have seen that happen before when the adjustment of the resonate elements is so far out that the signal doesn't all end up in the intended place -- weird things can happen because Fisher used some pretty high gain RF designs. Do you have good alignment equipment?

Dave
 
I have had a handful of experiences with alignment and think I understand the principles. I have a good frequency counter, a scope, and a RF generator that can put out 10.7 modulated or not modulated. I can also sweep the 10.7 signal. I used this to align mono receivers (not the K-100 -- it sounded so good I decided to leave it alone). I was able to get a decent outcome. The telefunken used a similar sequence to the 500C instructions, but started with what we would call Z5 at the detector to first max C85 voltage, then find the null point using the junction of two resistors in series from C85 to GND. After that, telefunken did the other IF stages. The RCAs I did also started at the detector and worked back to the oscillator. I know what Fisher instructions are trying to do, but the beginning seems wrong because they say to couple the test signal through the shield of V2, but that's grounded! I suppose those are pre-Nuvistor instructions. I also don't know what to consider the output of the MPX as written. Seems to me there are two ouputs, A and B. Maybe either one works. -d PS EDIT Just read your conversation from last year with Thorn about mono vs stereo alignment and their different needed accuracy levels. Looks like it's a more challenging job, for the tech and for the equipment.
 
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Day -- If you're referring to the diode audio switching matrix circuit -- those voltages will inherently change significantly from a no signal to MPX signal condition: With a no signal condition, the matrix automatically defaults to a mono state, since clearly no 19 kHz pilot signal would be present then (Stereo Beacon off). This produces the primary set of schematic voltage readings for this circuit. On the other hand, a second separately set off set of voltage readings is also indicated at certain points in the matrix circuit when a Stereo MPX signal is present (matrix has now changed to a stereo state, Stereo Beacon on), which (obviously) requires a Stereo MPX signal to be received and tuned in for the matrix to respond to. So the voltage swings in that circuit will be significant between a no signal and Stereo MPX signal condition.

Yes, that's where I measured. I expected a voltage change, just as the schematic documents, but nothing changes. Measurement with no antenna (dial pointer at 88) gave identical voltages compared with measurements with antenna and strong signal tuned in. I measured twice and carefully. But tomorrow I'll go back and do it again. I've learned to triple-check unexpected results - might be that the observation is just wrong. Reproducibility is essential!
 
The audio matrix diode circuit will only show a voltage change if the circuit actually changes state. So when receiving a signal, it's got to be (obviously) a MPX signal, and one that is strong enough to cause the matrix circuit to change state.

If you get to the point of aligning the unit, let me know and I'll show you how to couple your 10.7 mHz generator into the front end section.

Dave
 
I'd like to know that, and also have your advice on best places to connect the scope. Today I tried putting a cuff of copper foil on V1 with a wire soldered to it and the RF attached. When modulating I could hear a tone, But I never succeeded in seeing a sweep envelop. Should I use the sweep or just follow the Fisher instructions? Do you recommend their approach: Z1-Z5 peaked for voltage, then concentrate on Z5? On Z5 is the two resistor method of Fisher's OK to find 'null'? Should I try to see the "S" trace? Sorry - so many questions! Really it will get me a long way just to know where to inject and where to measure with the scope. Thank you! -d
 
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I wish I understood why the voltages on V3 Pin 6 and V7 Pin 5 are so high. I'm checking components but no luck so far. Prefer to know/fix before alignment. Now I hope to hook up a signal with a sweep if I can and just *observe* how the filters are tuned or not tuned. Without touching the slugs, and troubleshoot for a while.
 
Day -- I believe your voltage at pin 5 of V7 is high because you measured it under the wrong test conditions (according to your test conditions in post #22). You indicated that the receiver was tuned to a station, which likely triggered the Stereo Beacon to come one. In that mode, V7 is cut off prevent all plate current flow, allowing the relay to assume its normal state with its NC contacts triggering the Stereo Beacon lamp on. With no current flow, the plate voltage at V-7 would then assume nearly that of the B+ supplying the tube, which is in fact what your measurement indicates.

I would dismiss your concerns for the voltage at pin 6 of V3. That is the screen grid element, supplied by a dropping resistor. Therefore, the actual voltage there can be somewhat tube dependent, but also definitely impacted by any IF signal presented to the tube -- received, or otherwise (picked up from ambient noise). One of these possibilities appears to be happening since the AVC circuit is apparently supplying some negative grid bias voltage to pin 1 of V3 (your indicated -0.6 vdc versus a specified -0.28 vdc). This allows V3 to draw less current, making for a higher screen voltage at pin 6. As a check, pull out V18 and see if the pin 6 reading at V3 appears to be more normal in that condition. Removing pin V18 will remove any IF signal from the front end that might be presented to V3.

As for the alignment procedure in general, follow the Fisher procedure -- other than for injecting the 10.7 mHz signal to adjust the IF strip. You're trying to mix the older alignment approach (i.e. pre-stereo MPX days) with those after stereo MPX became a reality. The older tuners used a stagger method of aligning the IF strip, and adjusting for the detector S signature because the IF transformers were of a narrower, but broad band design. This achieve the desired selectivity but made their adjustment somewhat critical in achieving a flat top IF band response and proper S curve response at the detector output. When the GE/Zenith MPX format was approved, IF transformers were redesigned with wider response (to properly handle the wider bandwidth of the composite MPX signal), but with sharper slopes at each side to maintain a good degree of selectivity. When this happened, it became entirely practical then to simply peak the transformers for maximum signal transfer at the design center frequency of the transformer (10.7 mHz). At the ratio detector, adjusting the DC balance via the top slug with the temporary installation of balance resistors has never failed to deliver a very low distortion result at the output in my experience. No modulation is needed when adjusting the IF strip in this manner.

As for injecting the IF test signal, you'll need to make a test jig to do that. The instructions were written for the original 500C offering that did not use a Nuvistor populated front end. To complicate matters, Fisher then failed to update the alignment procedures when the later (long running) Nuvistor version went into production, where then the instructions didn't make any sense since V2 then became a Nuvistor. So now a jig must be made/used to inject the signal. To make it: Take about a 3" piece of ordinary #22 gauge solid wire, and leave the insulation on it. Fold it in half. Hold the folded end in one hand, while twisting the leads together at the other end with your other hand -- but leave enough untwisted length so that at the fold, it can be spread apart slightly to make for a small opening. The twist should not be lose, but neither does it need to be super tight, either. At the twisted lead end, remove about a 1/4 inch of insulation from each leg of the twisted leads, and solder them together. Now you have your jig.

At the back side of the receiver's RF can (outside of it), you will see a short wire appearing with spaghetti on it, with a hook or bend at the end of it, and connected to nothing. This is the injection point, shown as test Point 1 on the schematic. Slip the opening in the test jig over the hook at the end of the test point lead from the RF can. The cover of the can should remain in place at all times. Connect the output of your 10.7 mHz generator between the soldered twisted end of the test jig and chassis ground, to form a loose coupling between the test jig, and the test point lead extending from the RF can. Do not try to make the generator connection directly to test point 1 without the test jig, as the capacitance of the generator connection will then alter the circuits inside the can, and no doubt overload them as well.

This will inject the signal appropriately so that you can then follow the rest of the procedures accordingly. Be sure to follow all the setup procedures noted, and keep the test signal as low as possible.

Good luck with it!

Dave
 
Sorry! I had replaced the table with voltages but did not change the text outside the table. I now fixed that. Those are indeed measured with pointer at left end / no antenna as noted at top of table . Yiou're absolutely right with a station tuned-in voltage was 146V at V3, but still (too?) high even in correct conditions (129V). V3 and V7 are still high, However, if it's OK to proceed to alignment, that's fine with me. I'll remeasure after alignment.

Paragraph 3 of your reply - great detail and explanation! Thank you ! Glad to hear it no longer requires babying IFs to get just the right slope and width of the pass band! or dealing with the 'S' !!
Paragraph 4 - very clear - *but* -- what is "MPX output" to connect to in Step 2? I don't know whether to connect to the detector output that's *going to* the MPX (TSP4), or to use one or the other of the output channels (anode ends of matrix diodes connected to MPX). With an answer to that I should be all set.

I'm really looking forward to trying this. Thank you, thank you! I'll report back, but it will be a few days. Have a great Sunday! -d
 
This is probably obvious but, I'm going to ask anyway.

Following along with the FM alignment instructions in the 500c service manual and the posts above I would like a clarification on the units being used in the chassis/station selector column and the signal generator freq. column. When the table shows 10.7MC is that supposed to be milli cycles or Mega cycles (10^-3 or 10^6) respectively?

I ask because from the conversation above it looks like the signal generator is set to 10.7 milli cycles for steps 1 & 2, but when I look at steps 3 and 4 in the station selector column, it leads me to believe MC represents Mega cycles. I guess I'm just getting confused between the use of the lowercase m vs the uppercase M.
 
It's all megacycles. Back in the day, mc or MC was the accepted abbreviation for megacycles. Today of course, the term cycles has been dropped in favor of Hertz or Hz. Now the accepted abbreviation for megacycles is mHz.

Dave
 
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