Has vinyl peaked?

[Dukiedook]

I like both formats but digital is beginning to get to the point where it is better than LP and will continue to get better. Will I continue to collect and take LPs off people's hands for the time being? Sure, I do like the sound of digital too and my Squeezebox does a pretty damn good job of playing those files.

Anyone that takes a one side or the other outlook is missing out in my mind.

 

[steelglam]

Anyone that takes a one side or the other outlook is missing out in my mind.

:thmbsp:

 

[cubdog]

I tried to get back into vinyl a few years ago. A month after getting things set up I knew I'd made a mistake. All the crap associated with getting decent sound from records and a TT killed my enjoyment of the music. Maybe I'm lazy or maybe I need instant gratification. The ease of streaming music and the huge volume of music now available has changed everthing for me. I rarely use my CDP either and can see the day when I won't own one of those either. I'll tell you one thing, given a choice between between getting, at no cost to me, a $5,000 DAC or $5,000 TT I'll take the DAC every time.

cubdog

 

[Pandovski]

If digital sounded good enough to Karajan, it sounds good enough to me. Or as he put it, everything else is gaslight.

 

[Arkay]

...
...with the advent of 192/24 and 2x DSD recorders, the first nail in the eventual coffin of vinyl has been hammered in. There will be better digital formats than those ones available in the future, and when they get here even the very best of vinyl replay will have no further performance advantage over the new digital formats.
...

I think this is very likely true. It may take a while, but the technology to make digital sound ever bit as good as analog is ALREADY HERE, at the "cutting edge". There are sound files out there which effectively put the same sonic quality as an analog master tape at our disposal in a digital download form. It's really only a question of IF and WHEN the owners of those master tapes will allow them to be made available in such a format.

If they do, and the world generally (including the masses of kids downloading MP3s) moves in that direction, then the only reasons to continue playing vinyl will be non-sound-related. The nostalgia factor (if you are old enough) or some transient (hipster-like) fad factor or other appeal might keep vinyl alive, but we'll no longer be able to justify vinyl-spinning because it sounds better. It will be a lot of extra hassle/work (or ritual/meditation if you prefer) for no sonic gain. The technology ALREADY EXISTS to make this true, even if it isn't quite in (most of) our living rooms today.

For anyone wanting to know more about this topic, I'd recommend some of the panel discussions from RMAF 12 that are up on YouTube.

There will be an absolute limit on the number of new records pressed based on the limited number or presses that are in working order (no new machines are being built). Some of the current machines will become unrepairable, even further limiting the revival.

As far as collecting old records is concerned, that will remain an interest because so many recordings, particularly rock, jazz and pop, sound much better in the original release than in subsequent digital releases (it doesn't matter what is the reason for this -- whether this is the result of poor digital mastering, deterioration of the master tapes or inherent superiority of the medium). I certainly would prefer that digital reissues improve on the original, but, that does not happen often enough to make lp collecting more than a collector hobby.

The issue of pressing capacity is a real one. As the currently-running machines eventually wear out beyond what can be cost-effectively done to keep them running, where will new records come from? Will the still limited production volumes make it worth anyone's while to actually make the equipment (used to made vinyl records) available again?

The issue of better sound being available on vinyl than in digital format is also a real issue TODAY... but if the record companies, looking as always for yet another way to re-sell us their existing catalogs, start releasing them as hi-rez DSD downloads, this will no longer be true. If you knew that you could have the same --or even better-- quality sound at just the click of a button, as you now get with all the steps of record-spinning, how often would you choose to spin a record? Most people wouldn't do it very often, if at all. So while this is a good reason for vinyl to retain some popularity for a while yet, this reason COULD disappear. In fact, if companies start realizing how much more money they could make re-releasing their catalogs in hi-rez digital formats, and how quickly sales could multiply that way (with no tangible products to manufacture, ship, etc...), they'll start churning out those files hell-bent-for-leather. Then watch how quickly the vinyl resurgence will stabilize down into a very small niche; a sub-surgence, if you will.

Maybe the reason that vinyl sales declined in 2012 is because people are finding out that the original pressings are more times than not better than the current new reissues that are being released. Just a thought.

There is a lot of truth in this, of course. People have caught on that much of the time, finding an original pressing may be better than a new one. Then again, sometimes it's just easier to buy a new one, than go on the hunt for a harder-to-find GOOD old one. So there will be room for both.

But again, what could sound the death knell for both hunts is truly master-tape-equivalent hi-rez downloads. No one can say whether or not that will materialize on any real scale, but if it does, then all bets on vinyl's continued growth in sales --new or old-- would have to be off.

...
If I had a large collection of LP's, and sometimes wished I had the convience of Digital, I would borrow the highest quality TT I could, and transfer them all to a 24 bit/96 khz Loss Less Digital Format. This way when I'm in the mode I could enjoy the LP, and when I'm lazy, just press a button on my I-Pad and get an Exact copy of the LP, that may sound better than the Digital vesion if it was mastered better. I find many LP's are generally mastered better than CD's, Especially older LP's. Once these files are saved in a computers HD, they can be transerred in many formats for playback in the car, a boat or RV, or taken to the cottage.

This is very true: the mastering is critical. That said, I think whenever companies are trying to sell truly cutting-edge quality, like truly analog-equivalent digital files, they'll be inclined to seek out more skilled mastering engineers. Eventually, if the market for hi-rez files explodes, they'll have a lot of inferior masters out there, too, because there aren't enough really skilled guys (or girls) out there to keep up with the potential demand, but at least initially and for the more valuable titles, they should be well-mastered.

Incidentally, the guys doing the best digital work today won't get near 24/96 any more. It's too inferior. 24/192 and even higher are where it's at now. I'm going to sell my 24/96 set-up soon (after I buy an Oppo BDP-105 that can handle higher rates), before it's price plummets in the face of higher/better gear. The software may never be available in any significant amounts at the higher rates, but I'm inclined to think that eventually it will be. When it is, I'll be ready.

...
I don't have very many DSD files and I have never tried to play them through iTunes, though. The number of people that need DSD capabilities is so small right now that it is makes the vinyl market look huge. If ripping SACDs or a DSD music services became extremely popular, I think the software would follow.

This is true FOR NOW, and I think whether it remains so is the single biggest key to whether vinyl continues to enjoy a "resurgence" or finally dies the relative death so long predicted for it. When there is truly no sonic advantage whatsoever to vinyl, and all one's music can be had in breathtakingly high sonic quality at the click of a mouse, a lot of people now still playing records, will stop. Even if some of us die-hards don't, enough will to take the wind out of the vinyl ship's sails and leave it in the doldrums, a once again almost-forgotten niche.

 

[Arkay]

Just thought I'd add a personal perspective.

For me, PART of the reason for still spinning vinyl is the sound quality. When enough music is available in good enough digital formats, I'll spin a lot less vinyl. Now it's a matter of both, digital for the convenience and vinyl for the fun and the sound quality. But even when digital sound quality has fully caught up to vinyl, I won't give up vinyl altogether, in part because I LOVE INTERESTING TURNTABLES, and can't resist buying them sometimes. A part of me enjoys being (as stupid as it might sound to some) a TT collector.

I just bought yet another Lenco L-75 future project. I would also have just bought a Garrard 301 with Fidelity Research tonearm, but since in recent weeks I've bought seven vintage Infinity speakers (along with the Lenco), I'm now scrambling to figure out how to pay for the 301. Even at 1/3 to 1/5 of the going market rate (which is what I can get it for), it isn't really cheap. I don't need another TT, either, but this is one of those iconic ones that I find hard to pass up. Clearly, I'm in this hobby not just for the sound, but for other reasons as well. They'll keep me in it, even when digital has fully caught up sonically.

What is more, I know I'm going to be working on making DIY turntables and semi-DIY TTs (like re-plinthed and tweaked-to-death Lencos) for years to come, even if I can't right now because of (temporary) living circumstances.

Here's a funny subscript: Why did I just buy so many more Infinity speakers? So after I move back into larger premises later on, I can re-establish a surround sound system that is 9.2 or perhaps 11.2, instead of just the 5.1 I used to have, but using all vintage (EMIT/EMIM/Watkins era) Infinity speakers. The double irony of that is that for the past few years, I've preferred to watch movies in 2-channel mode. So why go back to fancy surround? Just for the fun of it, to have something new to work on and experience. I'm curious what the new, expanded formats will do to those surround-encoded concert Blu-rays, too... It's ironic that the newer HT technology is driving purchases of the old (vintage speakers) for me, at least in some respects.

 

[131east23]

For some vinyl is really not a hobby. I like my records because I am sentimental and my record collection reminds of where I've been and who I was with, good times and bad times. For someone that doesn't keep a diary it's the closest thing I have. That said, I'm still more interested in sound quality than anything else and don't put much credibility into the idea that vinyl is superior to digital. CD's are great, and they too, now that they are being slowly phased out will be missed by people like me that really want to own a physical copy of the music. I try to be openminded but it will be a leap for me to eventually have a server full of music rather shelves full of records and CD's. But I see the advantage in it and I think I can embrace it as long as the quality is there.

 

[Tullman]

Playing records at a standard that commands respect from the digital majority demands dedication, above average components ( read: great turntable, great arm, great cartridge, great phono stage, that all synergise with one another).

In other words, it's hard work. One either has the benefit of years of working at it or the benefit of having tons of gear going though your system in order to arrive a that special combination. Just having the components and none of the know-how of what it takes to get the best out of them, will only garner so-so results. Having the know-how and average sounding components will only garner so-so results.

I don't think it is any harder work than digital. Yes, a good vinyl rig and a good setup is necessary. My rig was professionally setup and it cost $70., about the cost of three 180 gram records. For years now, all I need to do is put the vinyl on and play.

It takes more time to set up a computer based system for sure.

 

[trhee]

IMO, setting up a turntable for optimum performance is much harder than setting up digital due to the physical nature of a stylus dragging across a vinyl surface. The table, the arm, the cartridge, phono preamp, setting up vtf, vta, azimuth, overhang, etc... Depending on the type of table and arm, a turntable is not always a set it and forget it kind of deal. Compared to digital, turntables have always been a higher maintenance love affair, if you want the optimal performance from each type of setup.

A "professional" setup is meaningless until you know who is doing the setup work, including yourself if you do your own work. For the same reasons I send my guitars to Norio Imai in NYC for any guitar work or setups instead of some bozo at Guitar Center, the guy that has been doing my setup for the past 25 years is one of the premier turntable setup guys in the business and is well known in the audio industry. His work with Linn LP12's, his specialty, is unequalled IMO as well as others who are LP12 fanatics. At the same time, there are other shops where my personal setup is no worse, and admittedly, my abilities are average at best.

I think a lot of people who own turntables and enjoy them may not be hearing the best their turntable has to offer. Not to be cliche, but the difference between a turntable that was setup decently and optimally is a difference that can easily be heard and is quite dramatic, especially on higher end tables.

I don't think it is any harder work than digital. Yes, a good vinyl rig and a good setup is necessary. My rig was professionally setup and it cost $70., about the cost of three 180 gram records. For years now, all I need to do is put the vinyl on and play.

It takes more time to set up a computer based system for sure.

 

[DougMac]

I tried to get back into vinyl a few years ago. A month after getting things set up I knew I'd made a mistake. All the crap associated with getting decent sound from records and a TT killed my enjoyment of the music.

You are by no means alone. I love the ability to pull up music from my collection that's on my office computer while sitting in the home theater. No fiddling around, just press the button.

Someone thought that John is worried someone might think he was a hipster. I don't know much about hipsters, but I think they might be similar to beatniks from a different time and a subset of hippies (my generation) who used to sit around advocating anti-materialism while listening to the McIntosh rig dad bought them before they left for college.

PS I just read a discussion of hipsters. I'm frightened, since I wear Doc Martens and I've read "On the Road".

 

[trhee]

I've been wearing Doc Martens for 25+ years because of their timeless design and ruggedness and I don't consider myself a hipster. I've also read Salinger, Vonnegut, Hesse, etc.. many, many years ago because I love to read and those authors/books were and still are classics. Sometimes I wear skinny jeans and other times I wear loose cargo pants, sweatpants or even khaki's. None of this makes me a hipster, nor do I want to be. I'm old enough to choose my own style of living, without the need for labels and such, instead of trying to conform to another's ideal.

To be honest, I find the whole hipster movement, if you want to call it that, to be quite pretentious, but that is just my opinion and nothing more.

PS I just read a discussion of hipsters. I'm frightened, since I wear Doc Martens and I've read "On the Road".

 

[DougMac]

I'm old enough to choose my own style of living, without the need for labels and such, instead of trying to conform to another's ideal.

Spoken like a true hipster.

 

[JohnVF]

I was part of the indie-crowd of the 1990s that spawned the hipsters, or sort of morphed into them as what was a smaller crowd became much more popular. As such, I identify with them and also can't stand them to some degree. A friend of mine is 22 and I talked to her at length today about them, as she's more in the thick of it than I am any more. She said the worst she's heard recently is of a group that all ride their fixed gear bikes to the lake and listen to Russian classical music on ipods while reading the New York Times on iPads. As in, that's their thing and they're very snobby about it. Oh, and that she saw three people in the past two weeks carrying turntables down the street. Not playing them...just carrying them. She very much recognized playing records as a hipster thing, though she's a fan of music.

They're an odd bunch for sure. I'm glad they're having fun but they're really an arrogant bunch. But I guess my group of indie-snobs wasn't much different, and for no good reason. All the bands we were so high-and-mighty about are mostly forgotten and weren't that good to begin with. Every generation has its version of this behavior.

Me..I put my VPI back in play and forgot how much the Juicy Music Tercel lifts the performance of the whole vinyl rig. It makes a bigger difference than switching tables out, to be honest. Its a fantastic phono stage. But also part of the pain and expense of running the whole rig. Without it, the rig doesn't match my digital setup. With it, it does. Sometimes. Depending on pressing, cleanliness, condition of the record, which way the wind blows, you name it. So many variables. My digital setup is either better or equal most times, and is far more consistent. That consistency is really attractive to me, but I can't say that my records sound bad at all. They sound great, but it comes at a cost that I'm losing patience with paying.

 

[Pandovski]

Its official. Vinyl has peaked!

The last episode of Pawn Stars revolves around vinyl being cool again. Its done.

 

[haffy111]

this thread has now gotten weird and off base IMO

 

[Hendrix416]

what I always find interesting about these types of debates is that people always imply it has to be one or the other, digital OR vinyl, like your preamp only has one input or the universe will implode if you enjoy BOTH.


In my system I have two turntables (4 tonearms and carts) a Cd player, and a computer server. Everything has it's time and place. In the mornings when I am getting ready for work or cleaning the house and don't want to be tethered to a turntable I listen to digital, when I want to sit down, listen to music and decompress I throw on a record. If I don't feel like cleaning a record I throw on a CD, if I want to check out a new release I put on spotify.


The "either or" attitude saw a lot of guys selling off their vinyl when they got cd players only to regret it years later. I would be careful not to fall into that same hole again

Couldn't have said it better myself.

With that in mind, this thread is becoming yet another digital vs analog debate.

 

[marc mc]

Me..I put my VPI back in play and forgot how much the Juicy Music Tercel lifts the performance of the whole vinyl rig. It makes a bigger difference than switching tables out, to be honest. Its a fantastic phono stage. But also part of the pain and expense of running the whole rig. Without it, the rig doesn't match my digital setup. With it, it does. Sometimes. Depending on pressing, cleanliness, condition of the record, which way the wind blows, you name it. So many variables. My digital setup is either better or equal most times, and is far more consistent. That consistency is really attractive to me, but I can't say that my records sound bad at all. They sound great, but it comes at a cost that I'm losing patience with paying.

This vinyl resurgence was a social trend. SQ had very little to do with it. I remember when the audiophiles for the most part took a shovel to vinyls head. It was not a sound quality issue at the time. In fact all the big gun turntable makers secured their own demise by taking an all out run at the State of The Art. They released some of their greatest monster tables to compete on sound against the new medium only to find they still couldn't compete with the little sliding tray and the remote control of a CDP.

Convenience is and has always been at the heart of this. I see the same comments here concerning music servers as I did all those years ago. I mean these days it's hard to sell a preamp that has no remote so vinyls days are numbered again this time by the same thing that killed it last time! You have to get off your ass every 20 minutes and its still almost impossible to sell RCM's. This time around has at least provided some comedy however. I am amazed at how many late adopters this time seem to think that they can plunk down $100 for a used POC turntable and expect it to blow their minds! These fellas are unaware of the fact that the early CDP's as horrible as they were blew that log splitter they just grabbed out of the water 20 years ago.

At the end of the day CD's were released years too early. The technology was half baked and still soggy in the middle. But the powers that be led by marketing wizards as usual cared only about the dollars a new medium would provide as another version of the White album and DSOTM would be sold. The first CDP's should have made the monster tables by Seiki, Goldmund and Maplenoll sound like 8 Track players. If they had, then these trendy kids with their mini's and imported pots might have dragged a Wreck Your Wrekords turntable out of some junk store and played it for the trendy thing it is. But a vinyl vs CD debate would have died with the monster tables back in the 80's.

BTW I would not be surprised if vinyl comes back again. I mean after all three times a charm. Some kid is going to pay $10 for a VPI Classic and 50 albums in 25 years and tell his friends " Hey man this things sounds better than my sonic sound projector" and his buddy is going to say "no it doesn't" :thmbsp:

Marc mc

 

[Ken Boyd]

I really could care less about trends!

 

[devnull]

this thread has now gotten weird and off base IMO

Base of what?

 

[Soren Hammer]

Can't we just get over this and say that people are different?

Some like beer - some stick with wine. Some enjoy both equally; only you can decide what's the best for yourself and respect other individual opinions.