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Heathkit W5M restorations and mods ideas

Any delay timer with a relay is suitable.

Either parallel the delay circuit which is open until after a delay with a resistor, so the current flows through the resistor until the relay closes, or use a DPDT relay such that the normally off contacts route through the resistor.

Same effect as the surgistor.

Do not use a thermal delay relay like the Amperite, as that both can't handle the current and has thermal mass so rapid-cycling will not reset. Sometimes a 555 is the best option.
 
From a Heathkit Service Bulletin:

INSTALLATION OF A SURGISTOR IN THE HEATH MODEL W-5M AMPLIFIER​

In a few cases it may be desirable to add a surgistor in the primary circuit of the power transformer to limit the high voltage surge which may occur when the amplifier is first turned on. This will help prolong the life of the components used in the amplifier where the line voltage or transformer voltages may be somewhat higher than normal, but still within their rated specifications.

Upon examining the surgistor, you will note that there is a set of contacts on one side. The gap between these contacts should be set two or three thicknesses of the cardboard container in which the surgistor is supplied. Referring to pictorial 1, page 1 of your W-5M Construction Manual, near the fuse holder your will find terminal strip N. The surgistor can be mounted on the same hardware that is used in mounting this terminal strip, so that the contact side faces the outside of the chassis and the connecting lugs face inward towards the center of the chassis. Make sure that the surgistor does not touch the chassis or other parts of the circuit. Disconnect the lead between AA8 and CC1. Install a lead between CC1 and one of the lugs of the surgistor. Install another lead from AA8 to the remaining lug on the surgistor. When power is applied to the amplifier, the surgistor will become very warm and have a tendency to smoke.

If you have a voltmeter, you might set the contact gaps more accurately by adjusting them so that the voltage measured at G half-moon or the filter capacitor does not exceed 450 volts. When measuring this voltage as the amplifier is turned on, you will note a rise from 0 to about 400 or 450 volts. Then the voltage will drop to about 300 or 350 volts and then drop gradually again to about 200 or 250 volts and then swing up to 350 or 400 volts. Under normal operating conditions, if the surgistor contacts are set about two to three thickness of the cardboard container that is supplied with the surgistor, satisfactory results can be obtained.

If you are in doubt regarding the necessity of installing a surgistor, we suggest you check the operating voltages and check the tubes.

Scan_20190604 (2).jpg
 
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I've seen (and read) the above posted Heathkit service bulletin and from what I understand the Surgistor mod was to reduce the main B+ HV surge at power on and keep it under 450V.

"This will help prolong the life of the components used in the amplifier where the line voltage or transformer voltages may be somewhat higher than normal, but still within their rated specifications". (quote)

There's no mention at all about the power transformer failure issue, though of course a transformer could also be considered as a "component" .

And the last sentence: "If you are in doubt regarding the necessity of installing a surgistor, we suggest you check the operating voltages and check the tubes" also seems to indicate an overvoltage issue.

Of course, this will re-open the debate about the W-5M power transformer failure mechanism...

My (simple) guess is that the transformer used by Heathkit was either underrated for the service or had a production defect. After all, 95% of the tube amplifiers (and other transformer powered consumer electronic devices) from the same era didn't have any delay or soft start-power on circuits and power transformer failure was still a rare occurrence.

On the (many) W-5M's I've worked on, output transformer failure (open primary windings) was a more common (and serious) problem. There are also many threads analyzing/explaining this problem and how to prevent it but the conclusion is : the iron used on the Heathkit W-5M is NOT reliable and failure prone (and much more now that these amps have aged), they can fail at any moment whatever clever protection scheme you'll fit in. I've seen so many "fully restored/protected/surgistorized" W-5M's back on the bench after a few months (or weeks) of service with a defective transformer that I no longer accept to work on these.
 
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I've seen (and read) the above posted Heathkit service bulletin and from what I understand the Surgistor mod was to reduce the main B+ HV surge at power on and keep it under 450V.
That is the same thing I infer from reading the Service Bulletin. One point of interest is the high voltage used on the W-5M amplifiers, compared to the other Heathkit W series. The directly heated rectifier, 5R4, guarantees there will be a high B+ overshoot at startup until the output tubes start conducting/drawing current to bring it back down to the normal operating voltages. Another factor, in the high voltage drama, is the line voltages today are often higher than was typical when the W-5M was designed, which translates to higher B+ voltages throughout the amplifier.
 
The burnout of the primary winding is not a consequence of higher line voltages. That would slightly shorten the heater lifespan or slightly shift the bias points. It wouldn't burn the transformer. This is about excessive heating of the primary winding because of poor winding wire sizing and thermal conductivity of the core itself, case from potting, or both.

The heating in the primary is a function of I^2 x R. The inrush current from cold heaters (dead short) can be 8 to 10 times the normal steady-state heater current. So the primary winding is already hot when the heaters are at operating temperature. Then, once the rectifier is hot enough to conduct, the B+ secondary winding begins heating as current is drawn to charge the filter capacitors (dead short). At this point the additional heating in the primary arising from the high current flow for capacitor charging on top of the already substantial heating for the filaments is now sufficient hot to burn the winding and make the transformer go blammo!

So it's all inrush for heaters and then filter capacitors.

As I referenced in No. 12 the issue was thoroughly discussed in another thread not to long ago:
The subject of inrush current causing transformer burnout in the Heathkit Williamson amplifiers was fully analyzed here:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/mystery-device-found-in-heathkit-w4-am.862840/

Included are reference to service bulletins issued by Heathkit and commentary from a repair tech at Heathkit.

The basic issue is the excessive current from heater inrush rapidly heats the primary which then burns out when the B+ kicks on. Heathkit's fix was to add a surgistor, a time-delay thermistor, to limit inrush current and thus the initial heating. No need to re-discuss.
​

The explanation of the power transformer failing with text from a tech employed by Heathkit to effect repairs may be here found:
and Dave's commentary about how the potting material made the transformers run hot may be here found:

So I'd say it's pretty well settled, at least to the extent one may settle issues with amplifiers where all the employees of the designers and manufacturers with direct knowledge are all long dead. We hashed all of this out, resolved the multiplicity of theories, and slew all the sacred cows and had steaks.

Edit: clarified inrush type and heating issues.
 
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So I'd say it's pretty well settled.
I would say it wasn't settled at all, and open to a variety of conjectures, as there is no statistical support for relating observed failures to actual root cause(s).

I'd even suggest that of the observed failures, pretty much none have been assessed for root cause, and only some have been able to align the time of failure to two timings (power turn on, and after some time of operation with everything hot).

I'd welcome any new evidence, even down to individual failed transformers being torn down. It's plausible a fault may only show a broken unstressed wire, or a broken wire in a heat stressed zone. It can get ugly to tear down a transformer that is potted - certainly a labour of love.
 
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...It has nothing to do with higher line voltages.
I believe that there is more than one issue in play. Your description of power transformer failure due to inrush current is certainly a valid and important issue for exactly the reasons you describe.

A second issue is the high B+ voltage as the amplifier starts up. When the amplifier turns on the directly heated 5R4GY will fairly quickly (about 2 seconds) start conducting current and cause the B+ to rise quickly. At this time there is very little load on the B+ supply and as a result the B+ voltage will go well beyond (> 580V) the normal steady state operating voltage (510V) and stay at that voltage until the other tubes in the amplifier start conducting current, at approximately 8 to 9 seconds, at which time the B+ will settle down to the normal operating voltage (510V). This short time at elevated B+ can stress the G capacitors rated at 450V and coupling capacitors C14 and C15. I believe that this is what the Service Bulletin is referring to in the first sentence. "In a few cases it may be desirable to add a surgistor in the primary circuit of the power transformer to limit the high voltage surge which may occur when the amplifier is first turned on."
 
I believe that there is more than one issue in play. Your description of power transformer failure due to inrush current is certainly a valid and important issue for exactly the reasons you describe.

The issue described for the Heathkit Williamson family is always transformer failure, and the detailed discussions specified a primary short. Again, I've never heard of the filter cans failing and the replacement part was always a transformer. But your theory has some very interesting implications, so let's analyze what you wrote and expand upon it. Maybe we can rule it in or out.

I still think a piece is missing because we don't have reports of capacitor or rectifier failure which would surely ensue from the situation described.

A second issue is the high B+ voltage as the amplifier starts up. When the amplifier turns on the directly heated 5R4GY will fairly quickly (about 2 seconds) start conducting current and cause the B+ to rise quickly. At this time there is very little load on the B+ supply and as a result the B+ voltage will go well beyond (> 580V) the normal steady state operating voltage (510V) and stay at that voltage until the other tubes in the amplifier start conducting current, at approximately 8 to 9 seconds, at which time the B+ will settle down to the normal operating voltage (510V). This short time at elevated B+ can stress the G capacitors rated at 450V and coupling capacitors C14 and C15. I believe that this is what the Service Bulletin is referring to in the first sentence. "In a few cases it may be desirable to add a surgistor in the primary circuit of the power transformer to limit the high voltage surge which may occur when the amplifier is first turned on."

Yeah, I saw that wording and found it sloppy use of the vernacular. But the key point in all of this is that it is not the capacitors which are reportedly failing, it's the power transformer. Such failures could only arise from excessive current, as any excess voltage between the rectifier and capacitor would not burn out the transformer.

Hold that thought, I'm not in disagreement. I'm just stating the common theory we're going to test. I think I can explain how excessive voltage would blow the transformer's primary winding, or the B+ secondary. But I am not yet fully convinced this is also happening because the failures always describe transformers, not rectifiers or filter capacitors which also needed replacement. It always was transformer, transformer, transformer, transformer, transformer, transformer, transformer, transformer, transformer, eh?*

Theory 1: Heathkit's terminology is inapt and incorrect and thus deceptive. Describing current surges as voltage surges was common then and remains common usage; most builders in those days were not electrical engineers or physicists, and thus did not understand the difference between voltage and current. Hardly a shock, no pun in tended, as I have worked with electrical engineering PhDs who didn't know the difference and routinely misused the terms. (Digital and software backgrounds, unable to solder as well. Just saying that even with an engineering background the difference can be missed.)

So if the explanation is instead read with "current" substituted for "voltage" the above quoted material becomes:
"In a few cases it may be desirable to add a surgistor in the primary circuit of the power transformer to limit the high current surge which may occur when the amplifier is first turned on."​
Which perfectly explains the inrush current from cold heaters plus the B+ to charge the filter capacitors. Simple and direct.

Plausability:
High

Theory 2: Excessive B+ blows the filter capacitors, which short, blowing up the rectifier and B+ winding. Suppose the tube cathodes using B+ take just enough time to heat that the rectifier is already conducting for about six seconds, the voltage climbs beyond the maximum voltage for the filter capacitors, the capacitors then short, the rectifier shorts (maybe it can survive, but damaged from over current), and the B+ winding burns out trying to drive a dead short. The already overhead primary may first fail, as it was primed for failure by the inrush current from the cold heaters.

The surgistor delay is about ten seconds so that theoretically keeps the B+ down until the tube heaters are hot. The heaters should be fully hot at about ten seconds, so that provides enough time for the overhead primary to cool and enough time for the B+ load (tubes conducting) to start so the capacitors don't short out.

This theory requires excessive B+ current to blow the winding. That requires high electrolytic leakage without a hard failure. I don't think a temporary leakage situation could be cured when the voltage dropped. If the anodizing layer failed, it would have a puncture through it that would not be self-healing. It's not like PIO where the short burns out and the non-conductive oil fills in the hole and the capacitor again functions.

Plausability: Low. This problem of initial overvoltage from rectifier on but matching B+ load not yet present exists in nearly every amplifier, but we don't generally see the filter capacitor bank shorting out and taking the rectifier and secondary to Valhalla. Yes, we do see this every once in a while when old filter capacitors fry. Great argument for shotgun capacitor upgrades to the power supply and a dim bulb tester for initial power on. The electrolytics are generally robust enough to tolerate a 15% voltage overload without failure. If they weren't nearly all of the tube amplifiers would regularly blow up the filters. That often doesn't happen even when output tubes are pulled and the B+ climbs to excessive levels. We don't have reports of capacitor and rectifier tube chernobyling in the Williamsons, either. What we do have reported are failures in the transformer. If a capacitor failure occurred it would have been reported as such, and it isn't.

I agree that the failure in a capacitor would blow the rectifier and winding; this is why I suggest separately fusing the B+ and the rectifier output because the mains fuse is sized for heater inrush and B+ charging, the total being high enough that a shorted rectifier or filter capacitor could take out the rectifier and then the winding.

My conclusion is Heathkit's wording is sloppy and it's a current surge, not a voltage surge.

Thoughts?

* The younger or foreign readers may not recognize this as the Olympia Café skit from Saturday Night Live in the early 1980s when it was funny.
 
From @tcdriver posting above about the Heathkit Bulletin,... It would seem that a lot of thought or maybe research (?) went into the remedy and placement of the surgistor as to rectify this problem. A fairly detailed bulletin indeed. To me, it doesn't seem like a quick Band-aid which is to cover a gushing wound.

It would've been nice to know the aftermath (returns/burnt part, PTs, etc), in the Heathkit Service Department, once the bulletins went out and customers installed the surgistor then gave the amps a thorough performance run.
 
Really enjoying this thread.

@tcdriver

Didn't you have a W5M and swap the PT out?
You have a good memory. I did start a thread regarding replacement of a failed Heathkit power transformer. The amplifier in question was a Heathkit W-4M. Here is a link to the thread: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/heathkit-w4m-replacement-power-transformer.653694/

The story of failure:

I purchased the Heathkit W-4M many years ago at a flea market, but, I had not done anything with it. About twenty-five years ago a friend of a friend let it be known that he was interested in buying a W-4. I contacted him and we agreed on a price and a time to meet to close the deal. In the meantime I proceeded to check out the amplifier. After reforming the capacitors and a few other checks, I brought the amplifier up and it proceeded to work as it should. I then proceeded to check it on the test bench over the course of a few days. All the voltages were good. No unusual anything. It all seemed good. Finally, on the day that the buyer was going to come by to pick it up, I installed it in my music system and let it play. The objective was to be able to demonstrate, to the buyer, that the amplifier was functional and ready to use or rebuild. The amplifier played and the music was sounding good :music: for about twenty minutes and then snap! The power transformer shorted. In this instance, the failure was not a start-up failure.

I set the amplifier aside until 2015 and then decided to get it going again. I started the above linked thread here on AudioKarma and with some good advice and helpful suggestions was able to find a replacement transformer and get my Heathkit W-4M up an running again. :music:
 
The delayed failure you describe is readily explainable as resulting from excessive inrush current.

The primary winding was gradually thinned with each powering on until it could no longer function in normal operation. Whatever weak spot exists became higher resistance until normal current exceeded the carrying capacity of that thinner wire and it failed in that weak spot.

Think horses, not zebras.
 
I would also urge every amplifier rebuilder to abandon the practice of "reforming" geriatric electrolytics.

Even if the electrolyte had not significantly evaporated, the ESR on such capacitors is very high compared to tday's replacements, the longevity was poor, and the manufacturing standards not to what we would consider baseline acceptable.

The "reforming" process attempts to recreate the aluminum oxide dielectric layer on the second plate. This is not guaranteed to be an even distribution, and the oxide or foil may have permanent weak spots, particularly if it was "powered on" by some ignorant seller. If a power supply capacitor shorts it usually destroys the rectifier and the winding. Hence my suggestion to fuse the secondary between the transformer and the rectifier, and then between the rectifier and the filter capacitors.
 
From @tcdriver posting above about the Heathkit Bulletin,... It would seem that a lot of thought or maybe research (?) went into the remedy and placement of the surgistor as to rectify this problem. A fairly detailed bulletin indeed. To me, it doesn't seem like a quick Band-aid which is to cover a gushing wound. It would've been nice to know the aftermath (returns/burnt part, PTs, etc), in the Heathkit Service Department, once the bulletins went out and customers installed the surgistor then gave the amps a thorough performance run.

Quite the contrary; very little thought or research was required. The surgistor was not only in the zeitgeist, it was sold in every electronics or hardware shop.

Surgistors were commonly used, particularly in series-string televisions where colder tubes would force current through hotter tubes, causing early failures. It was an inexpensive and readily available off-the-shelf solution. When I was growing up all of our vacuum-tube televisions had surgistors added by my dad. It was a common, and very inexpensive, after-market addition to extend tube lifespan.

In this instance it also extended transformer lifespan. So it would have been well known and the lowest-cost, and most readily implemented, solution.
 
You have a good memory. I did start a thread regarding replacement of a failed Heathkit power transformer. The amplifier in question was a Heathkit W-4M. Here is a link to the thread: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/heathkit-w4m-replacement-power-transformer.653694/

The story of failure:

I purchased the Heathkit W-4M many years ago at a flea market, but, I had not done anything with it. About twenty-five years ago a friend of a friend let it be known that he was interested in buying a W-4. I contacted him and we agreed on a price and a time to meet to close the deal. In the meantime I proceeded to check out the amplifier. After reforming the capacitors and a few other checks, I brought the amplifier up and it proceeded to work as it should. I then proceeded to check it on the test bench over the course of a few days. All the voltages were good. No unusual anything. It all seemed good. Finally, on the day that the buyer was going to come by to pick it up, I installed it in my music system and let it play. The objective was to be able to demonstrate, to the buyer, that the amplifier was functional and ready to use or rebuild. The amplifier played and the music was sounding good :music: for about twenty minutes and then snap! The power transformer shorted. In this instance, the failure was not a start-up failure.

I set the amplifier aside until 2015 and then decided to get it going again. I started the above linked thread here on AudioKarma and with some good advice and helpful suggestions was able to find a replacement transformer and get my Heathkit W-4M up an running again. :music:


Thank you for clarifying your ownership of the the W4M vs. W5M. Great story. :thumbsup:

Will post a pic of the caps that are inside these two amps. Bulging, cracked and both ends are popped out.

I wouldn't dare risking a re-foam with what I see currently inside of these W5Ms. :no: You are braver than me!
 
...Will post a pic of the caps that are inside these two amps. Bulging, cracked and both ends are popped out.

I wouldn't dare risking a re-foam with what I see currently inside of these W5Ms. :no: You are braver than me!
Your Heathkit amplifier is currently 60 or more years old. Capacitors, in the condition you describe, would not be good candidates for reforming. When I reformed the capacitors in my W-4M, it was thirty or so years ago. When I revived it in 2015, new capacitors were installed. There can be a significant difference between 30 year old capacitors and 60 year old capacitors. I do not recommend reforming 60 year old capacitors.

I am currently working on getting a pair of W-5M amplifiers operational again. All the electrolytic capacitors will be replaced with new. Any electrolytic capacitor, including all new capacitors, in current projects will be checked for leakage and ESR before installation.
 
I am currently working on getting a pair of W-5M amplifiers operational again. All the electrolytic capacitors will be replaced with new.

Would be greatly interested in you considering the start of a new thread regarding your W-5M resto/repair endeavor.

If so, I will certainly follow it. There are a couple here on AK,... but another wouldn't hurt, either. :D
 
Has anyone found a commercially produced transformer from Edcor etc without going custom that will work? Mine just went bad. Ugh. Hv taps on secondary (red) measure 50 ohms across instead of 150 ohms. First it was an output transformer now this.
 
From a more general POV, the B+ on these is too high. IMO there is very little impact to delivering a B+ level more like 380V. Slight tuning to adjust operating points of the amplifier/splitter/drivers will likely be a good idea. A replacement pair of un-potted power Iron from somebody like Heyboer comes to mind. Or a carefully selected 300-series from Hammond.

After all that, I would still suggest building it into something 'not-Williamson'. And further still, a circuit that is not employing a global NFB loop.

Douglas
 
Mine just went bad. Ugh. Hv taps on secondary (red) measure 50 ohms across instead of 150 ohms. First it was an output transformer now this.
Was it an original power transformer that just failed? Were you using a 5R4 rectifier, and had you added ss series diodes to the 5R4 anodes for protection from arcing ?
 
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