How can a turntable influence the sound quality?

[SaSi]

Junk turntables are the ones that stand out in performance - they do sound terrible.
As you move up in the food chain, the turntables add less and less aberrations, so they start to sound pretty similar. And the really high-priced ones, imho, just look different.

Never discount the effects of the tonearm of a low end turntable and then the effects of mismatch between what the cartridge wants and what the tonearm gives. Even top-of-the-line tonearms are not necessarily compatible and optimum matches for every cartridge, especially the high compliance ones that many crave for.

I had the same notion a few decades back - the TT just turns the record. And if it hums a bit, it can be cleaned up once I make a digital copy. I digitized several LPs with a crappy plastic turntable. Still have the 44/16 wav files. I then (11 years ago) obtained a Revox B791 with a great sounding Orforon MC20 cartridge. They changed the way I viewed vinyl and made it clear to me that not all turntables are made the same.

For the sake of satisfying my curiosity, I mounted another MC20 cart (I liked the sound that much, I purchased a couple) onto a headshell and tried it on that crappy turntable - I still have it. It didn't sound crappy but I wasn't impressed either. Something about the stereo image not being really there and the low frequency content not being punchy and controlled ruined the result.

 

[randomuser01]

Bluntly speaking, there is a lot of BS that circulates among some audiophilic conversations. Sometimes a critic or reviewer needs to keep an audience and therefore cannot continue to regurgitate the same words over and over. So they "create" descriptors that they hope conveys what they want and/or adds interest to their piece. Something like musicality has no empirical meaning and it's therefore hard to contradict.

OK, I believe there are differences in the presentation different equipment offers and rumble and subsonics and wow and flutter are not just measurable, they can be audible. As far as unmeasurable, I will give some discretionary license to those who listen to systems I don't. By this, I mean if they want to claim there is a difference, that's fine with me. What it will all boil down for me is whether the difference is something I can hear. Ultimately that's what matters to me. BUT, who am I to claim someone else can't hear something just because I can't?

Take reviews and subjective opinion for what they are....subjective. There isn't any reason to deny anyone the right to their opinion and arguing opinions isn't a particularly productive pursuit.

I guess that's the only conclusion that can come from this since no one seems to really know thank you for the reply!

 

[randomuser01]

Junk turntables are the ones that stand out in performance - they do sound terrible.
As you move up in the food chain, the turntables add less and less aberrations, so they start to sound pretty similar. And the really high-priced ones, imho, just look different.

Never discount the effects of the tonearm of a low end turntable and then the effects of mismatch between what the cartridge wants and what the tonearm gives. Even top-of-the-line tonearms are not necessarily compatible and optimum matches for every cartridge, especially the high compliance ones that many crave for.

I had the same notion a few decades back - the TT just turns the record. And if it hums a bit, it can be cleaned up once I make a digital copy. I digitized several LPs with a crappy plastic turntable. Still have the 44/16 wav files. I then (11 years ago) obtained a Revox B791 with a great sounding Orforon MC20 cartridge. They changed the way I viewed vinyl and made it clear to me that not all turntables are made the same.

For the sake of satisfying my curiosity, I mounted another MC20 cart (I liked the sound that much, I purchased a couple) onto a headshell and tried it on that crappy turntable - I still have it. It didn't sound crappy but I wasn't impressed either. Something about the stereo image not being really there and the low frequency content not being punchy and controlled ruined the result.

I can understand this when you go from high end to junk but not when you go from high end to high end which is what most of the people that I was talking about were comparing

 

[Hifiler]

In that case I might not exactly know what you mean do you have anything I can read in order to understand what you mean?

Sorry but I am having a hard time understanding what you don't understand, if that makes any sense. I'll try to summarize one more time.

Myself and others have explained that besides turning the platter with consistent and accurate speed control, another major function of the the turntable itself is to control the forces that can and do affect the ability of the stylus/cantilever to extract as much information as possible from the record grooves.

These forces are both external (vibrations in the room/environment), and internal, primarily vibrations from the motor transmitted to the platter via the belt, idler, or drive system (but can also be things like platter wobble, bearing noise, etc...). If these resonances reach the stylus, they affect its movement, and therefore its ability to retrieve the information in the groove, resulting in some alteration of the resultant sound apart from how it was encoded in the grooves.

Now completely apart from the tonearm, the quality of the turntable goes a long way in reducing the resonances that affect stylus and cantilever movement (remember these movements are very, very small). Therefore aspects like drive mechanism, motor quality, platter weight and material, bearing size and type, plinth material and construction, isolation mechanisms (springs, grommets, etc...), etc... all can and do affect and reduce the resonances seen by the stylus and cantilever.

And the less resonance that is seen by the stylus/cantilever, the better it is able to extract more of the signal in the record grooves, and the better a given turntable will sound. I'm not sure this can be explained any differently.

 

[Hifiler]

I guess that's the only conclusion that can come from this since no one seems to really know thank you for the reply!

Now that is just getting ridiculous. Many people here understand exactly how a turntable can influence sound quality, and have tried to explain it to you.

 

[Slick Willie]

No not at all. From what I understand the table has to turn as quietly as possible and as stable as possible not control the vibrations that the cart produces that's the arm's job right?

Incorrect, its only job is to control/transmit the vibrations as accurately as possible,

 

[randomuser01]

Now that is just getting ridiculous. Many people here understand exactly how a turntable can influence sound quality, and have tried to explain it to you.

Yes I understand what you mean but again I just don't understand how this can make it so that some parts of the sound is more pronounced than other parts also wouldn't you want the influence of the turntable to be as low as possible? If this is the case it doesn't make sense that it can positively effect things like bass right?

 

[randomuser01]

Incorrect, its only job is to control/transmit the vibrations as accurately as possible,

How is that different from what I said.... Or are you talking about the turntable? If so then I am completely lost.

 

[Audiofreak71]

So you still haven’t answered the question from page 1 , do you own a TT?

Audiofreak71

 

[Slick Willie]

How is that different from what I said.... Or are you talking about the turntable? If so then I am completely lost.

You said "not control", that would be chaos. It needs to control and transmit as accurately as possible the vibrations picked up by the cart.
The table does this with many of its "parts". Even the material that the platter/weight is made of can alter the sonics.
These vibrations are subtle and easily influenced.

 

[Hifiler]

Yes I understand what you mean but again I just don't understand how this can make it so that some parts of the sound is more pronounced than other parts

If the stylus/cantilever is bouncing around in response to external forces (resonances), then it is going to miss retrieving some of the information in the groove, and the resulting sound will be impacted. Different resonances can affect the sound in different ways (some can primarily affect bass).

also wouldn't you want the influence of the turntable to be as low as possible?

Yes of course, this is EXACTLY what everybody has been trying to explain to you. But you don't seem to understand that the sonic influences of different turntables are different. Many examples have been given. Some design characteristics influence the sound much more than others.

If this is the case it doesn't make sense that it can positively effect things like bass right?

No, it makes PERFECT sense. The less a given turntable influences the sound, the closer the reproduced sound will be to what was actually recorded into the grooves, and many aspects of the sound will therefore be positively affected (including bass).

Just trying to be clear, what is it that you don't understand about this last point?

 

[randomuser01]

If the stylus/cantilever is bouncing around in response to external forces (resonances), then it is going to miss retrieving some of the information in the groove, and the resulting sound will be impacted. Different resonances can affect the resultant sound in different ways (some can primarily affect bass).



Yes of course, this is EXACTLY what everybody has been trying to explain to you. But you don't seem to understand that the sonic influences of different turntables are different. Many examples have been given. Some design characteristics influence the sound much more than others.



No, it makes PERFECT sense. The less a given turntable influences the sound, the closer the reproduced sound will be to what was actually recorded into the grooves, and many aspects of the sound will therefore be positively affected (including bass).

Just trying to be clear, what is it that you don't understand about this last point?

I was thinking about it the other way around that more influence from the turntable would increase the bass not sure why I thought that it makes more sense now that you explained it like that. Not sure why it took so long for me to get that but I get it now thank you

 

[55Redneck]

My suggestion is back away from the TT and stick to CD's and digital downloads.

 

[Hifiler]

I was thinking about it the other way around that more influence from the turntable would increase the bass not sure why I thought that it makes more sense now that you explained it like that. Not sure why it took so long for me to get that but I get it now thank you

I was wondering if that's what you were thinking. Sometimes it is difficult to flip your point of view, we all know this. Glad things are making more sense!

 

[randomuser01]

My suggestion is back away from the TT and stick to CD's and digital downloads.

I am not saying that I don't like tunrtables I just didn't understand I mean I sadly hardly know anything about turntables which is probably quite easy to see from my responses I'd like to atleast know more about turntables before making that kind of a decision

 

[Andre Garcia]

 

[Audiofreak71]

Obviously a troll , I don’t understand why so many have been coming to AK lately , guess there bored with trolling on YouTube and the rest of the troll spots .

Audiofreak71

 

[randomuser01]

I guess this tread can be closed now thanks to everyone for your replies. Not sure if I need t

Obviously a troll , I don’t understand why so many have been coming to AK lately , guess there bored with trolling on YouTube and the rest of the troll spots .

Audiofreak71

not sure what you mean. I am not a troll it might same obvious to you but I actually didn't understand I understand it way better now so I am glad I made this tread. I am new to turntables and vintage audio in general so I don't know a lot about turntables .

 

[Slick Willie]

I am not saying that I don't like tunrtables I just didn't understand I mean I sadly hardly know anything about turntables which is probably quite easy to see from my responses I'd like to atleast know more about turntables before making that kind of a decision

If you decide to get a table...may the lord have mercy on you as you filter through the different design philosophies of the plinth/arm/platter/drive system!

 

[lini]

ru: Maybe you'd best look at the turntable as a kind of frequency dependent "filter" (in its widest sense) - at least regarding it's influence on the sound.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini