How much wattage do you use, on average?

[E-Stat]

I don't understand your formula because it's not a formula for calculating joules.

It is the electrical formula for storage in a capacitor in joules, not mine. This time, follow the link I provided in post 155. One need only supply C and V.

Here is is again. There is a link within that link that shows the formulae used.

https://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.php

And yes, output transistors DO dissipate watts in the form of heat.

No debate there. Return again to your claim in post #154 where you opined:

"it's obviously dissipating way more than 35 joules."

Output stages don't dissipate joules.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Sure. In post #152, you quoted Pyrro's comment:

"...does not mean that one must have high distortion at low power."

And replied "Sure it does".

Maybe you didn't mean what you posted lol.

First, my short response was to bust his chops lol.

And it was in response to this portion if you want to get specific .

"The point being, the information you posted does not support the idea that lower powered amplifiers have less distortion at low power levels than high powered amplifiers."

My response "sure it does".

You don't need to be a genius to see the graph I posted shows a high powered amp with low distortion, so implying I might interpret that as high distortion.........well? Now that speaks volumes lol.

You also don't need to be a genius to interpolate what I outlined in post #156.

 

[E-Stat]

And it was in response to this portion if you want to get specific .

Thanks. That changes exactly to what you are agreeing!

 

[Grenadeslio]

Thanks. That changes exactly to what you are agreeing!

Lol, whatever that means.

Done.

 

[E-Stat]

Lol, whatever that means.

Simple. Agreeing to this:

"..does not mean that one must have high distortion at low power."

is quite different from agreeing to this:

"does not support the idea that lower powered amplifiers have less distortion at low power levels than high powered amplifiers."

 

[62caddy]

Whereas high powered amplifiers operating at low outputs levels in concerned, the only disadvantage I've heard expressed is that frequency response linearity has been claimed not not be as good compared to low powered amplifiers driven to at the same low output levels- which is arguably a type of distortion.

Even if there's any truth in it, this is a broad sweeping statement that's bound to have as many exceptions as there are individual models.

As far as harmonic distortion goes, I've never heard of any amplifier testing for higher THD at low levels than when measured at full rated output. In fact, it's usually the opposite. Of course there could always be exceptions to that too but I don't think that's the norm for the majority of amplifiers.

 

[E-Stat]

As far as harmonic distortion goes, I've never heard of any amplifier testing for higher THD at low levels than when measured at full rated output.

It can with class B amplifiers or ones that have extremely low bias which fails to minimize crossover distortion. I learned that lesson as a teen with the AR Integrated amp. Sounded great driving Advents at high levels. Sucked at low levels. That was back in the day of the McIntosh Clinics. I took the amp down to High Fidelity SSS in Atlanta and Dave O'Brien himself tested the amp and handed me the plotted graph. Met specifications just fine, but...

Great learning experience, but I got rid of that amp within a year.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Whereas high powered amplifiers operating at low outputs levels in concerned, the only disadvantage I've heard expressed is that frequency response linearity has been claimed not not be as good compared to low powered amplifiers driven to at the same low output levels- which is arguably a type of distortion.

Even if there's any truth in it, this is a broad sweeping statement that's bound to have as many exceptions as there are individual models.

As far as harmonic distortion goes, I've never heard of any amplifier testing for higher THD at low levels than when measured at full rated output. In fact, it's usually the opposite. Of course there could always be exceptions to that too but I don't think that's the norm for the majority of amplifiers.

You only need to look at the graph, this is true of most SS amplifiers. When manufacturers list output specs they rarely if ever list THD at minimum output, only rated output. But when reviewers test the amplifier they show the graph as below. This clearly shows there's exponentially more distortion at minimum tested output than the lowest distortion measurement on the graph which just happens to be approaching rated output, as I've stated.

Again, exceptional numbers across the board, and they should be, this amp is $9000.

But that doesn't change the fact the amp is more linear as it approaches rated output. So from this with all other things being equal, a lower powered amp will be more linear, as in less distortion at lower levels than a much more powerful amp. Again, all other things equal.

I'm in no way claiming a cheap low powered amp will outperform all higher powered amps at low output, again, look at my post concerning two Levinson amps. And the same comparison could be made with two pedestrian amps, again all things equal, apples to apples.

 

[Grenadeslio]

It can with class B amplifiers or ones that have extremely low bias which fails to minimize crossover distortion. I learned that lesson as a teen with the AR Integrated amp. Sounded great driving Advents at high levels. Sucked at low levels. That was back in the day of the McIntosh Clinics. I took the amp down to High Fidelity SSS in Atlanta and Dave O'Brien himself tested the amp and handed me the plotted graph. Met specifications just fine, but...

Great learning experience, but I got rid of that amp within a year.

Actually this statement is incorrect, the Dynaco ST120 is a class B amp and as stated by J Gordon Holt acted like a tube amplifier becoming more linear at lower outputs and why he initially liked it so much.

But this is a rarity, most SS amps distortion graphs will follow a similar arc to the Macs, only not as great lol.

If you can find one other than the Dynaco that doesn't perform this way please post your proof. So far all's you've done is conjecture, so dispute the graph you requested with something tangible.

A few more for shits and giggles.



Here's a SS headphone amp, even it acts the same way, imagine that.


Here's a graph of five 2020 receivers being compared, wow, all five hsve more distortion at very low output, though some are better than others.



Not understanding why this fact is so hard for you to accept, it is what it is eh.

But how interesting is it that the Cambridge amp doesn't seem to follow the norm. Yes it appears to at very low output but then recovers and remains very flat across the board. I would think this one won the shootout as it most likely keeps its character most of the way throughout it's output.

 

[E-Stat]

Actually this statement is incorrect, the Dynaco ST120 is a class B amp and as stated by J Gordon Holt acted like a tube amplifier becoming more linear at lower outputs and why he initially liked it so much.

Interesting. Wasn't aware the ST-120 was class B. I ended up trading the AR integrated to a cousin for a PAS-3X and ST-120. Indeed, that combo did not suffer the same malady to that extent. Remember Gordo also praised the PAT-4.

Don't find many (if any) class B designs available today. Wonder why?

 

[hopeless]

You only need to look at the graph, this is true of most SS amplifiers. When manufacturers list output specs they rarely if ever list THD at minimum output, only rated output. But when reviewers test the amplifier they show the graph as below. This clearly shows there's exponentially more distortion at minimum tested output than the lowest distortion measurement on the graph which just happens to be approaching rated output, as I've stated.

Again, exceptional numbers across the board, and they should be, this amp is $9000.

But that doesn't change the fact the amp is more linear as it approaches rated output. So from this with all other things being equal, a lower powered amp will be more linear, as in less distortion at lower levels than a much more powerful amp. Again, all other things equal.

I'm in no way claiming a cheap low powered amp will outperform all higher powered amps at low output, again, look at my post concerning two Levinson amps. And the same comparison could be made with two pedestrian amps, again all things equal, apples to apples.


View attachment 1856327

Exponentially less than almost zero in most cases.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Interesting. Wasn't aware the ST-120 was class B. I ended up trading the AR integrated to a cousin for a PAS-3X and ST-120. Indeed, that combo did not suffer the same malady.

Don't find many (if any) class B designs available today. Wonder why?

Doesn't change the fact that most SS amps are more linear as they approach rated output as I've stated and you challenged. Do you have any proof otherwise lol?

AS for Gordon, notice I said initially.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Exponentially less than almost zero in most cases.

Now that's funny, less than almost zero lol. Kinda like "that always sometimes happens".

And how wrong that statement is, you apparently didn't notice that graph is of a $9000 amplifier. Check the graph showing the receiver shootout, not so "almost less than zero" eh lol?

 

[hopeless]

Now that's funny, less than almost zero lol. Kinda like "that always sometimes happens".

And how wrong that statement is, you apparently didn't notice that graph is of a $9000 amplifier. Check the graph showing the receiver shootout, not so "almost less than zero" eh lol?

.1% is inaudible, especially at very low volumes. 1% is inaudible. My comment stands. In the real world, .1% is pretty much zero. Your speakers will distort the signal far more.

 

[Grenadeslio]

.1% is inaudible, especially at very low volumes. 1% is inaudible. My comment stands. In the real world, .1% is pretty much zero. Your speakers will distort the signal far more.

Distortion is cumulative, thats why we strive for as little as possible eh. It starts at the source and on down the chain.

Either way, it doesn't matter. The only thing in dispute here is my statement that SS amps are more linear as they approach rated output, period. This is a fact still to be disproved. Would you like to take a shot or just keep blabbing on about "its close to zero".

Ya, I thought not.

 

[GChief]

This locked up for the beer virus be making folks grumpy

 

[hopeless]

Distortion is cumulative, thats why we strive for as little as possible eh. It starts at the source and on down the chain.

Either way, it doesn't matter. The only thing in dispute here is my statement that SS amps are more linear as they approach rated output, period. This is a fact still to be disproved. Would you like to take a shot or just keep blabbing on about "its close to zero".

Ya, I thought not.

Your grasp of math is duly noted. .1% is not significantly adding to your cumulative. You can get as snarky as you wish, facts don't change. Arguing about fractional bits of distortion is pretty silly. Spend some time studying speaker distortion. Then a little time on audible distortion. You will be ready to make some great arguments at that point.

 

[hopeless]

This locked up for the beer virus be making folks grumpy

Nah, I'm not grumpy. Just doing some "lockdown homeschooling" with someone who's heart may be in the right place, but his knowledge level is not there yet.
5 hours until beer :30.

 

[GChief]

Nah, I'm not grumpy. Just doing some "lockdown homeschooling" with someone who's heart may be in the right place, but his knowledge level is not there yet.
5 hours until beer :30.

All good man, I am the first person that will engage in a “fun” debate. Only problem, intent is often lost with the written word on the interweb . Many Audiophiles panties tend get in a bunch then we all go to the principles office.

 

[E-Stat]

Doesn't change the fact that most SS amps are more linear as they approach rated output as I've stated and you challenged.

You must be confusing me with Pyrro. Just look at the graph I posted in #153.

Do you have any proof otherwise lol?

Do you end every question with lol?

Didn't think you'd answer my question about the utter lack of class B amps today. We know better.