HPM-100 -vs- ADS L-810

[Kegger]

Rather long winded reply by myself, sorry guy's!

OK my assestment of the HPM to my ADS L880 is pretty much on par with what all that
attended the shootout had to say. The Large ADS speakers are just a step up the latter
from your standard HPM, JBL-L100 and like, Cerwin vega, advent, many other mid grade
to slightly upper grade speakers. They just do everything better with a much more refined
sound with also having greater definition. They can play any kind of music and do it well.
Very very good to great bass extension, warm mids and detailed highs, describe the ADS.
(In a lively room and on some gear the ADS can have a slight emphasys in the treble region)

In my oppinion the HPM series are not a bad speaker just not in the same league as the ADS.

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OK I have both HPM-60's here and the 100's that I have done extensive testing/tweeking/
modding/poking/proding with every combo under the sun I could come up with to find what
would be the best attributes of these speakers and what makes them perform best, plus
try and isolate there weeekness.

In my oppinion there are 2 areas where the HPM has it's weekness and could be improved.
The xover on these woofers is to freakin high (1.5-3k) which causes bad off access frequency
response, not very forging lower midrange performance with a driver to large to produce them
correctly and backwave from the port of the woofer has lower midrange coming from it which
gives you this hollow or echo type sound (not good). And the tweeter is your typical vintage
paper cone tweeter that has neither extension nor definition and a rather skreachy sound to
it comparred to a good silk/soft dome tweeter on most amplifier setups.

A quick tweek to make these better sounding is replace the tweeter with a good silk dome
like say the DAYTON from PE, take the pot out of the signal path for the tweeter, increase/
improve the internal stuffing of the speaker and use a more laid back amplifier. Pretty good!
(if the xover has electrolytics in it also (as some do) then replace those with poly's)
Another larger tweek would be redo the xover and drop the woofer point to around 700-800hz.

There are a few good attributes of these speakers though! The impeadence curve is relatively
flat and high with a very simple xover which does lend it'self nicely suited for tube amps, then
toss in the higher sensitivity and it makes it a choice for low power great sounding tube amps
to be tried on here and in my experience a very worth while combo. Now anyone who knows a
really really good low power tube, ecspecially single ended triodes will tell you they have great
tone and a musically inviting sound to them that can only be appreciated on a speaker that has
simular electrical characteristics as the HPM's. Simple xover's and high sensitvity let the amps
sound come through and when paired with the HPM you get a taste of what a combination like
that can sound like and be very rewarding. Actually sounds pretty darn nice!
(could be improved with above tweaks much more) OH yah they also play loud!

You can't just throw any tube amp at them and get great results. The woofer in the HPM needs
to be harnessed and not just let fly like what a 6bq5/el84,7868,7591,el34 and alike type vintage
amps, but more like a 6L6GC/5881 or a 300B. A 2a3, 45, or some other sub 5watt amp does not
have the gusto or grip of the bass to keep the HPM woofer in line but with 90db-95db speakers a
300B is a great choice and works pretty darn well to give you the magic of the amp, keeping the
imperfection sounds of the speaker to tolerable levels and providing darn nice bass respose to boot
with a greatly improved midrange presence.

(Yes 6bq5/el84,7868,7591,el34 and alike type amps can be used but your typical non modded/rebuilt
versions of these amps tend to be rolled off at both ends and flabby in the bass which adds to the sub
par qualities of the HPM with it's lower extension of the highs and somewhat loose bass so it makes it
worse in most respects of the frequency extremes but can make the mid to lower treble area sound better)

If all you wanted to do was rock out and really really like the forward west coast sound then the HPM in
it's original form may be right up your alley as it has those attributes in spades.

(I would like to hear the HPM-900 as it does have some differences to the others that may make it better)

 

[Kencat]

Thanks Guys.

Just wanted to say thanks to all who participated in this shootout. This has made for a very interesting read, and I think has been very educational for many AKers (for me anyways).

I think all the comments have been handled nicely, and nothing got out of hand.

You're all mature, well qualified audiophiles.

Thanks dudes!

 

[bully]

I thought the HPM-100 would have fared better. I am not totally surprised, though, having had a couple of smaller ADS speakers that sounded nice and tight for little guys.
The HPM-900 I think made improvements over the earlier speaker system. Woofer to mid crossover is still too high--that surprised me consideting the huge size of the cast frame and motor assembly. It is that overlap from bass to midrange that makes me believe the 900 sounds better than the 100, the 900 doesn't have that midbass 'hump' that the 100 copied from the JBL L100 (Bart Locanthi's babies both of them).
I think the tweeter and the HPM supertweeter are excellent. A lower bass/mid crossover and a midrange speaker to carry dow to 700 or 800 Hz would be called for. I had some nice Dayton silk dome mids that would have been the cat's pyjamas. But overall, I think Pioneer did fine for their price point. They could have been had about 1/2 the price of the ADS.
Long and rambling, i blame nyquil and cough syrup. the foster's maybe, too.

 

[Kegger]

That doesn't sound like a bad assumption to me Bully! If the xover point was lowered
either using the existing driver or a better one and the midbass hump was gone would
make them quite a bit nicer I would suspect.

The HPM tweeter is more then likely fine but I do yearn for a little more silky highs from
the paper cone tweeter though and feel a nice silk dome makes a pretty big improvement.
Doing those things would alter the speaker quite a bit and I'm sure it would sound a lot
better to where it may be really really nice but some may say it's no longer an HPM-100
and we are altering the speaker to much. To each there own I guess.

 

[www.records]

Well, it sounds like you all had a great time. Lots of good info shared on this thread. Best I have read for a long while.

It would be fun to have a shootout of all the speakers from the "most respected speaker poll". Any opinions on how that would turn out?

 

[dingus]

Well, it sounds like you all had a great time. Lots of good info shared on this thread. Best I have read for a long while.

It would be fun to have a shootout of all the speakers from the "most respected speaker poll". Any opinions on how that would turn out?

that would be great. of course my place is just about the worst place to conduct future events. too many constraints and compromises imposed by the room. i think someplace with bigger and more open rooms would be much better. i'm thinking that a place that is motorcycle friendly, can accomodate Maggies with a sub, Wharfedale 90's, AR-90's, AR-94's, and exotic D-12's would work really really well.

 

[john_w]

I am really surprised by the distance you guys put between the ADS l810s and the HPM100s. I think the Cheyenne assessment was much closer, though that wasn't exactly a "shoot-out" - just a casual listen to a bunch of speakers. Maybe bad equipment or room synergy with the HPMs made a huge difference, or maybe there was something electrically or mechanically screwed up with your pair. I thought they were a tad shrill, but then again I also thought the 810s did have a bit much bass.

 

[dingus]

I am really surprised by the distance you guys put between the ADS l810s and the HPM100s. I think the Cheyenne assessment was much closer, though that wasn't exactly a "shoot-out" - just a casual listen to a bunch of speakers. Maybe bad equipment or room synergy with the HPMs made a huge difference, or maybe there was something electrically or mechanically screwed up with your pair. I thought they were a tad shrill, but then again I also thought the 810s did have a bit much bass.

the main focus of the day was to compare these two speakers directly. we did repeated A\B comparisions, with both the receivers, well beyond the point of there being no doubt about the capabilities of each speaker.

 

[crooner]

Nice shootout guys.

I wonder how the HPMs would sound with refreshed crossover parts. The aging process of certain types of speaker materials is not well known. Foam surrounds rot away but other not so obvious kinds of deterioration are possible. Who
knows...But then again, the other speakers in the group are not exactly youngsters....

Since I got my Vandersteens 2Ce sigs I had to part with my HPM-100s. I just needed the extra room and some extra cash for my latest acquisition: a DAC60 tube DAC.

cheers!

croon

 

[wineslob]

Well, it sounds like you all had a great time. Lots of good info shared on this thread. Best I have read for a long while.

It would be fun to have a shootout of all the speakers from the "most respected speaker poll". Any opinions on how that would turn out?

ANY time you guys want to come to Paradise, Ca. and "play" with my Duetta's, you are welcome. Hehee, bring the Maggie's I think they are close to competeing. (tounge in cheek)
Great read, and well thought out. :thmbsp:

 

[Retro Stereo]

Sony APM's on the floor and JP's Dodecahedron's on the L-810's.

This is how you had the HPM 100's placed? 90% of all the threads I've ever read on proper positioning of HPM 100's puts them on stands about 16" to 20" (18" nominal) high and at least 10 feet apart, which is where mine are. Even though they are a fairly efficient speaker, more power also will enhance the proper dynamics.
"White Van" speakers indeed.

On the AR-9's, you can have them all the way back against the wall (couple of inches away), but you have to have 2 or 3 feet (no walls, bookcases, entertainment centers, etc.) on either side of those woofers to give them room to breathe. A wood floor (less room dampening) vs a carpeted floor is also good for these speakers. They also require a lot of power to further enhance their dynamics. At the above "suggested" positioning, they would have blown all the other speakers you had there away.


I own both of the above mentioned speakers, along with KLH 23's, Ohm 4's, and several other different pairs of speakers, and this is just my $.02


Retro

 

[dingus]

This is how you had the HPM 100's placed?

for the A/B testing they were next to the L-810's, right about where the Sony's are in the pic. i believe the second pic posted shows the position of the HPM's when the A/B testing was done.

 

[john_w]

We had them on short stands that I would guess were about a foot high, with maybe a 4 or 5 degree back-tilt, and several feet from any wall. We used the same stands in the same position for both sets of loudspeakers; we just swapped out speakers and got the previous ones completely out of the way. (We did this for all the large bookshelf models we listened to. Others, of course, had to be played in other configurations.)

I actually spoke with the guy that engineered my "mystery" speakers, and he recommended 12 - 18 inches off the ground, tilted back 2 - 3 degrees. And of course at least two feet away from any wall. Others would probably be optimal with more of a back tilt, to account for more phase-shift, if you want to get that picky (My drivers are already horizontally offset to compensate). So I think what we had as far as positioning was at least close to optimal.
My main concern would be how close they all were to the wall in your set-up. But if the HPMs are just more picky regarding positioning, that still would not count in their favor!

 

[Retro Stereo]

But if the HPMs are just more picky regarding positioning, that still would not count in their favor!

Why, many fine speakers I've listened to had to be positioned correctly to do them justice.

Some people say the uppers on the HPM 100's blast you in the face and the bass is lacking. By lifting them up 18" and with the listener in a normal sitting position, the highs on the HPM 100's are now above ear shot and not so bright, but yet the bass is enhanced. Simple really. But once again, that's just me and my opinion.

Anybody who wants to give their HPM 100's to me, just send me a PM and I'll take them off your hands.



Retro

 

[kfa888]

I completely understand placement and have several speakers that are very sensitive to placement like my Maggies. To me the HPM were very un musical and have some serious issues and spikes in the frequency response. If you see a graph of these speakers it is obvious. Now some of this is probably hidden by placing them where it will diminish these peaks and valleys somewhat but you still have a speaker that does not sound good to my ears. JP has had these in many settings and said that actually driven off the luxman these sounded as good as they ever had which was amazing to me because I simply did not like them at all, no matter where they were placed, what amp or what music. In a blind test with any of these speakers I could pick the HPM's out a mile a way, shrill, very unbalanced and nasty was what I hear. Again, I really wanted to like these and take them home with me.

 

[Kegger]

I also have tried every position under the sun and like KFA say's yes it can "improve"
them with positioning but the character of the speaker shines through regardless.

The best I've found was 15"-24" off the floor 8' apart and sit back 8' with the speaker
slightly tilted back. But to be fair all the speakers were tested in the same setup and
all of them could benefit from being raised and positioned correctly.

So no the room or there arangement has nothing to do with the outcome on this one.
In fact as has been stated the room was pretty dead which should of only helped the
HPM! And they did have them spread apart and raised, the pic is just for show!

 

[john_w]

Why, many fine speakers I've listened to had to be positioned correctly to do them justice.

Very true, and given an appropriate place to put them I would want those speakers. Placement sensitivity is just one factor among many. But IMO, something famous for being "great dorm speakers" should be more flexible. Having said that, your suggestion of higher stands does make sense to me, since they had a fair amount of bias towards treble and lacked a little bass on the shorter ones.

kfa888 - I have heard drastic enough changes in sound quality strictly based on room acoustics and positioning to really suggest considering that they might actually sound halfway decent if placed right. Of course finding that "optimal" set-up is the hard part, and if you tried several positions and they still sucked, maybe they are excessively picky. I don't think anyone in our group thought they were bad loudspeakers, and I think we were a fairly discriminating bunch. Yet, there seemed to be a majority of bleeding ears in your group. Something's different.

 

[kfa888]

kfa888 - I have heard drastic enough changes in sound quality strictly based on room acoustics and positioning to really suggest considering that they might actually sound halfway decent if placed right. Of course finding that "optimal" set-up is the hard part, and if you tried several positions and they still sucked, maybe they are excessively picky. I don't think anyone in our group thought they were bad loudspeakers, and I think we were a fairly discriminating bunch. Yet, there seemed to be a majority of bleeding ears in your group. Something's different.

As this is the first time I have ever heard a set I can only report on what I heard on that day with those speakers. I truly hope something was amiss as I was surprised how bad they sounded. JP said he tested all the drivers and they are fine. Visual inspection shows all drivers to look to be in great condition and they both sounded the same side to side and we did run them mono as well to check for phasing and balance issues. I would have to agree that something is wrong because I simply do not see how so many people can like these.

 

[john_w]

Kegger - looks like you slipped in there while I was typing. So maybe the difference is in the individual pairs of speakers. Different individual units will age differently. Or maybe it's the altitude here in CO. (Turns us all into deaf headbangers. )

 

[Kegger]

The main difference I've heard in all the HPM's I've listened to is the capacitors.
Some have electrolytics and some have good quality film caps. (from the factory)
There is a good difference in the sound of the speakers with these caps and the
ones with better caps sound quite a bit better and not as harsh to where to me
they sound decent but even with the electros the "character" of the speakers is
stll the HPM sound.

Some will like it, some will not, some will tolerate there faults, some will mod them!

There are people who judge speakers more critical then others and if there is something
they don't like it doesn't matter what the rest of the speaker does. And some just don't
like the west coast sound and are looking for something more refined.