I Grossly Underpowered my Speakers . . .

[BilboBaggins]

btw, I'm not sure I've heard any of those songs!

You should check them out. Phenomenal! Make sure you get the original version of the Carpet Crawlers. Sarah does I think a better version of Ave Maria than Celine Dion. She is famous for her roles in Andrew Loyd Weber's musicals. For years I had to listen to them with distortion or keep the volume down. My speakers/amps just couldn't handle them.

 

[4-2-7]

This sums up much of what I figured also.

Sitting around having a hair splitting discussion on what the origins of the power spike originate from has limited usefulness depending on those in the discussion overall.

Amps having a hissy fit for whatever the reason are bad for speakers period. Minus the over powering aspect mind you LOL

My choice is to not listen to clipped music while I'm listening to music. My choice is to have the power not to clip, and not have a amp fail, seems prudent to me.

 

[PPstereo]

Make sure you get the original version of the Carpet Crawlers.

So true.

Of all the Peter era Genesis albums Lamb Lies Down became my favorite.

Seconds out is great but this youtube version Id love to get a sound board audio track from

 

[whoaru99]

Yes he does, al be it not quiet being forth right. He is stating a speaker will fail with to much power, true, but he stops there.

Read my post in #97 because there is two ways a speaker can receive to much power, witch is why this is a long standing debate.

I stopped there because that it where it stops. Too much power is too much power. As said before, the speaker doesn't know if it's clean power or dirty power, all it knows or cares is it too much or not too much. One can try to make it as more complex but it's really not.

One could play a square wave all day, about the worst approximation of a clipped signal one could fairly easily create, and the speaker will be just fine as long as the power does not exceed the speaker rating. I might go insane listening to it but that's another matter...arguably I'm already there anyway so no diff. LOL.

 

[PPstereo]

My choice is to not listen to clipped music while I'm listening to music. My choice is to have the power not to clip, and not have a amp fail, seems prudent to me.

You and me both.

Ive no Fing clue why expressing the dangers of amp clipping is like trying to explain quantum computing here but sadly it is that mystifying.

I digress

 

[4-2-7]

I stopped there because that it where it stops. Too much power is too much power. As said before, the speaker doesn't know if it's clean power or dirty power, all it knows or cares is it too much or not too much. One can try to make it as more complex but it's really not.

Correct, I agree

One could play a square wave all day, about the worst approximation of a clipped signal one could fairly easily create, and the speaker will be just fine as long as the power does not exceed the speaker rating. I might go insane listening to it but that's another matter...arguably

Agree here also, I'd rather give the signal the best possible chance to come out the speakers cleanly. Clipping starts before we even start really hearing it, but the sound quality is diminishing as soon as it starts to happen.

Ive no Fing clue why expressing the dangers of amp clipping is like trying to explain quantum computing here but sadly it is that mystifying.

Well as I just stated above, it doesn't even have to be at dangerous levels. I didn't build my system to listen to degraded music coming out the speakers, even if I may be unaware of it at the time.

 

[PPstereo]

Well as I just stated above, it doesn't even have to be at dangerous levels.

But thats crux of this statement being dont ask an amp to deliver more than its capable of correct?

Thats the basic point Im trying to make here.

Again not rocket science Id thought...

 

[opnly bafld]

You and me both.

Ive no Fing clue why expressing the dangers of amp clipping is like trying to explain quantum computing here but sadly it is that mystifying.

I digress

Let me try to explain it this way, earlier in this discussion we had an anecdotal explanation of why more power is better.
Using a totally inappropriate amp to drive a difficult speaker load, the poster changed to a much higher quality amp that would provide 3 more dBs of output.
His tweeters stopped blowing, so he just knows the higher power was the difference. I see this all the time when someone goes from an amp with questionable design and/or ability to a much better amp (that happens to have more power) and the incredible new satisfaction they get is entirely attributed to power. Too bad the difficult speakers were never used with a more appropriate amp of similar or even lower power than his original amp, his view would have been different (hey my tweeters are still working).

Why is clipping bad? If a person has reasonably good hearing and doesn't hear it, no harm, no problem. If it is noticeable turn the volume down; replace current system with a more capable one if you want to continue causing yourself hearing loss.

 

[PPstereo]

Let me try to explain it this way, earlier in this discussion we had an anecdotal explanation of why more power is better.
Using a totally inappropriate amp to drive a difficult speaker load, the poster changed to a much higher quality amp that would provide 3 more dBs of output.
His tweeters stopped blowing, so he just knows the higher power was the difference. I see this all the time when someone goes from an amp with questionable design and ability to a much better amp (that happens to have more power) and the incredible new satisfaction they get is entirely attributed to power. Too bad the difficult speakers were never used with a more appropriate amp of similar or even lower power than his original amp, his view would have been different.

Why is clipping bad? If a person has reasonably good hearing and doesn't hear it, no harm, no problem. If it is noticeable turn the volume down; replace current system with a more capable one if you want to continue causing yourself hearing loss.

Thats all good and well. And I see the inner point.

I still dont see why this mentality has to be blanket dismissive of those who simply feel their moving to a higher power amp had merit.

Again we are talking about folks who went from 60 watt receivers to 200 watt working mans amps.

It doesnt always have to be I went from an acurus 150 watt amp to a 500 watt Mac amp to show the difference.

It simply comes off as rather flippant to me to say the common folk who discovered their receivers werent up to snuff as being without merit.

I really do hope Im missing something in all this.

Im sure some engineer could take the whole amp clipping aspect to yet another level with some $60k piece of measurement gear to show how the golden eared are missing yet another layer of absolution.

 

[opnly bafld]

PPstereo, I think you might be reading too much into some of the posts.
My advise to others is look at their specific situation and buy an appropriate amp/integrated/receiver to meet their needs.
High power, low power, whatever, but just because you have way more power than needed isn't going to automatically make the system sound better.
Quality over quantity.

......and clipping doesn't kill tweeters.

 

[4-2-7]

Why is clipping bad? If a person has reasonably good hearing and doesn't hear it, no harm, no problem.

The problem for them not me, is they may not know their missing some music, they just think that's the sound of the system or mastering. I'v already said and we should all know, clipping starts out slowly, just hitting the very top transient peaks in the music one may or may not hear. Then as more dynamic music comes into play and we also might what to listen to it louder as we acclimate to SPLs it gets worse and worse till it's really bad, then we say hey it's clipping. But what about that time before it hit you in the face the amp is clipping, why build a HiFi system and listen to LoFi most the time?

 

[PPstereo]

My advise to others is look at their specific situation and buy an appropriate amp/integrated/receiver to meet their needs.
High power, low power, whatever, but just because you have way more power than needed isn't going to automatically make the system sound better.

Completely agree on all this.

And yes maybe I am reading overly so between the lines.

But I do feel this thread became a bit inflated in the head by some.

I love it when things take a more "educational" approach than a game of written algebra shall I say

 

[4-2-7]

High power, low power, whatever, but just because you have way more power than needed isn't going to automatically make the system sound better.

Well actually, 9 times out of ten every time I'v changed to more power than the speaker needs on a matchup, from lower, the speakers performed and sounded better at all volume levels. Go figure, most notable in the low frequency, as that driver likes good clean power delivered. If the amp is not providing, or doesn't keep up, we start loosing sound quality, and that's not even in clipping range.

 

[damacman]

Well actually, 9 times out of ten every time I'v changed to more power than the speaker needs on a matchup, from lower, the speakers performed and sounded better at all volume levels. Go figure, most notable in the low frequency, as that driver likes good clean power delivered. If the amp is not providing, or doesn't keep up, we start loosing sound quality, and that's not even in clipping range.

Dan - glad to see you join! Another way to look at this may be to consider that the higher power offerings from most manufacturers also incorporate better power supply design. Not just to achieve more juice, but to be able to drive the speaker better.

Specifically, by designing the power supply in a way where the amplifier is better able to cope with reactive loads, lower impedances, etc. Even more specifically, having a large enough transformer and more than enough energy storage to maintain output voltage when the voltage and current are not in phase with one another, or to be able to deliver the current required when impedance dips, or ideally - both.

 

[damacman]

My advise to others is look at their specific situation and buy an appropriate amp/integrated/receiver to meet their needs.
High power, low power, whatever, but just because you have way more power than needed isn't going to automatically make the system sound better.
Quality over quantity.

......and clipping doesn't kill tweeters.

Sound advice there.

 

[RunOutGroove]

Correct me if I'm wrong, because maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but if you use too low a power receiver for the speakers that are plugged into it and crank the thing up far enough for it to distort in an attempt to make those not efficient enough speakers really loud aren't you in danger of damaging those speakers? Isn't the rule that too much power or too much dirty/distorted power can both ruin speakers?

 

[tubed]

Too much power, clipping or not, will burn a voice coil on a tweeter not rated for that much power.
Imo, Ak'er Ken Kantor of NHT speakers explained this quite well in a thread similar to this one.

 

[damacman]

Too much power, clipping or not, will burn a voice coil on a tweeter not rated for that much power.
Imo, Ak'er Ken Kantor of NHT speakers explained this quite well in a thread similar to this one.

link in post #93, page 5

 

[BilboBaggins]

Dan - glad to see you join! Another way to look at this may be to consider that the higher power offerings from most manufacturers also incorporate better power supply design. Not just to achieve more juice, but to be able to drive the speaker better.

Specifically, by designing the power supply in a way where the amplifier is better able to cope with reactive loads, lower impedances, etc. Even more specifically, having a large enough transformer and more than enough energy storage to maintain output voltage when the voltage and current are not in phase with one another, or to be able to deliver the current required when impedance dips, or ideally - both.

Tada! At last, and this is 8 years, I think I finally get it! Thank you damacman! I may have a technical background, but it is all digital. To me, a power supply gives enough clean power to drive the chips. But audio is a whole different bowl of wax! I learned what I know through trial and error, but never truly understood the underlying reasons. But how you say it here actually completely makes sense to me.

 

[Robisme]

Has anyone actually played the track I refer? It may help ...

I just did. What a horrible song, IMO. If it wasn't for the video I wouldn't have been able to get through it. I would not want to play that loud. Some crazy sounds there.

Rob