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I shouldn't do this, but, - why that gear cost so much

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"You are listening to Robertson starting to edge towards Clapton on the stage"
Not to be a complete jerk, but how could you hear that unless something else was moving, such as the microphone assigned to his monitor or the monitor itself?
 
Actually this topic has merit:

High end gear tends to reveal detail that normally is not noticed when we attend a live performance.

Now, if you think about it, from a purest viewpoint, uncovering detail that would not normally be there is a form of distortion, assuming of course that we are dealing with recordings that have not had a lot of processing by recording engineers. However, unlike most types of distortion, audiophiles really enjoy the effects they are experiencing. So, from an entertainment perspective, the high end most definitely can satisfy and typically from a visual and tactile perspective as well as sonically.

However, live performances can often be closely approximated with relatively modest equipment. So, in my opinion, people should recognize that we are not all talking about the same thing when we say something sounds good or bad.

In most cases high end gear can approximate a live performance to a very high degree, but that is not necessarily what the audiophile is after. An analogous situation might be calibrating a television monitor; I know many who prefer to turn up the color, contrast, and brightness producing a very un-lifelike image, that's what they enjoy and they would not be happy with a properly caliberated monitor.

IMHO: We are dealing with at least 2 groups that are not always aware of or in agreement of each others goals, which can be quite different.
 
I respectfully disagree with that. You can chase things in the high end that aren't audiophile pyrotechnics, yet that still improve things, and get you closer to feeling like there's less between you and the recording/performance.
 
Audio equipment is like being on a car forum that covers all makes. There's no way everyone will agree, everyone will think the model they chose is better than whatever anyone else chose. It's human nature I think.

The cool thing is individuality, none of us have the same exact systems or same musical tastes. Sure we cross paths, but that's it. I'm listening to The Smiths right now as we speak on my computer setup, and I'm positive half the forum has never heard of them, and half of the other half hates them, and probably my setup too.

So what? (Not to quote Anti Nowhere League)
 
positron said:
The marketers, shills, either condemn a more accurate product to keep sales down, thus a better chance for their friend's company, or the marketers work the angle that the "live musical performance" is not even the goal anymore, so their friend's products are just as good as the more accurate products. The marketing/business happens all the time on other forums.

Cheers.
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this is the biggest piece of bullshit I have read here in a long time. Wow. i live on a farm, so I get to see bullshit every day.....and I know it when I read it.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
[PQUOTE=analoge4ever;6968262]High end gear tends to reveal detail that normally is not noticed when we attend a live performance.

Now, if you think about it, from a purest viewpoint, uncovering detail that would not normally be there is a form of distortion, assuming of course that we are dealing with recordings that have not had a lot of processing by recording engineers. However, unlike most types of distortion, audiophiles really enjoy the effects they are experiencing. So, from an entertainment perspective, the high end most definitely can satisfy and typically from a visual and tactile perspective as well as sonically.

However, live performances can often be closely approximated with relatively modest equipment. So, in my opinion, people should recognize that we are not all talking about the same thing when we say something sounds good or bad.

In most cases high end gear can approximate a live performance to a very high degree, but that is not necessarily what the audiophile is after. An analogous situation might be calibrating a television monitor; I know many who prefer to turn up the color, contrast, and brightness producing a very un-lifelike image, that's what they enjoy and they would not be happy with a properly caliberated monitor.

IMHO: We are dealing with at least 2 groups that are not always aware of or in agreement of each others goals, which can be quite different.[/QUOTE]

Let's not forget that most all professional music performances are, themselves, highly produced affairs. Unless we accept that the only "true," "live" sound is made by acoustic instruments in an anechoic chamber, then there will always be some level of electronic jiggery-pokery going on. And studio albums? Fuhgeddaboutit. Lately I've been paying attention to the sound engineer in the album credits as much as the musical artists themselves.
 
positron said:
You can attempt to justify is as "business" but it is crooked, dis-honest, and shills etc are not welcome. When someone sabatoges, shills, or posts false information on a forum, it is to manipulate sales, so it is in marketing territory no matter how it is dressed up. By the way, falsifying data/graphs is internet fraud, a criminal offense.

Cheers.
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Examples please. Or lay off the paranoia. Why do you think you are solely qualified to notice when things are or aren't legit?
 
positron said:
I wonder if those who argue against shilling etc the most are the most involved? After all, they have the most, the pocket change, to lose.

Cheers.
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I hear ya

Rich Weiner, Bound for Sound: "The SAS 10A is the most musically truthful preamp I'm aware of, and I will expand that statement by listing some of the line stages I've had in my otherwise very stable system: Herron VTSP-1, VAC CPA III, VAC Standard LE, Audio Research 3A, ARC 8, ARC 10, Mark Levinson ML-1, Levinson ML-7, Levinson ML-10A, Original Aronov PS-100 and Musical Concepts modification, Nagra PL-P, Beveridge RM-1, Rappaport, Placette Passive - there are more, but you get the point. Until I got the 10A, I struggled to make the other components live up to their potential." (Rich eventually purchased the 11A as his reference preamplifier.)
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positron said:
An honest reviewer who never got a dime from me. In facts, the Feds know me as being honest.

Cheers.
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Yep, SAS, a company I was unaware of until I looked up the address in your location. And a review that placed your preamp above a list of other manufacturers - discrediting them as it was.

It's almost like a little subtle shilling going on.
 
Hey positron, ya might want to hire someone to spiff up the web site a bit. All those dead links and the 1990's era look don't exactly inspire confidence in the quality of your products...
 
positron said:
You should look up the definition of shilling Jeffrey. Shilling is the act of receiving something for gain, whether it is direct cash, discounts or any other material gain.

So you just lied to all of us, Jeffrey, hopefully out of ignorance.

Cheers.

ps. Folks, Martin's article sheds a little light on the subject of how the game works.

http://www.boundforsound.com/Sample Reviews.htm#Truth

One more quick example. You learn that some on a forum, a forum you have never heard of, are attacking your products cause of the tubes you use. You
of course defend the use of the tubes, distortion is low etc, and you receive 36 virus attacks via email in one day. Later, when
your products are attacked again, you defend, and another 24 virus attacks come via emails. And yet again later. (Luckily I have protection
programs and use an external backup.)
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So you're the owner/designer of SAS Audio, might be handy to know this on a signature line, since you are a manufacturer. Actually as I recall SAS has a pretty good reputation as a small manufacturer, remember hearing of SAS products at least ten years ago....probably on the Audio Asylum website.

However, given the nature of these posts, I would have to think long and hard about buying a product......

Regards
Mister Pig
 
positron said:
You should look up the definition of shilling Jeffrey. Shilling is the act of receiving something for gain, whether it is direct cash, discounts or any other material gain.

So you just lied to all of us, Jeffrey, hopefully out of ignorance.

Cheers.
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I said "almost", a subtle difference. You didn't quite post a direct link to your website, that contains glowing reviews of your products, just almost.

I think you should come right out and disclose your position as a manufacturer of high-end electronics and $140/m interconnects, just so folks aren't confused with who they are debating.

And full disclosure, I'd love to give one of your preamps a whirl someday. But I'd pay full price, too.
 
positron said:
Please don't attempt to single me out, and discredit my reputation John. I understand you work in the field, as you have already admitted. From page 5.

JohnVF


So being a shill is just a different perspective? And you accept that as honest dealings, even when others do not know, especially the new members?

In recent posts I provided many examples, including a criminal defense attorney's article, plus the Feds know as well. So why distort my posts and attempt
to discredit me JohnVF?

Cheers.
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Because what you say is paranoid delusion.

And I work in advertising, not audio, but many of my best friends work in the audio industry. And what you say is not backed up with the reality I've seen. Not with the ill-intent you speak of. Not on the scale you speak of. I see a business environment. I don't see a scam of mass delusion like you see, or imagine. Isolated incidents of it? Sure, I bet they happen. They happen in every industry. Massive collusion and fraud? Nope, don't see it. I see many things that aren't worth their price TO ME. But that's a call I can make on my own.
 
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Positron, your products look interesting. With sincerity, you should invest in some marketing. How else would anyone know about your product. One review is not enough, you need to have one of the more well-known mags take a run at your preamplifier. Also, you should publish the output impedance specification. You might want to consider some advertising as well. I mean this with all positive intentions and am not criticizing at all, just offering some feedback.
One can have the best product in the world, but without marketing, it might just sit there and never get into the spotlight.
 
Soundminded said:
I must conclude that you've never heard a live symphony orchestra in a great or even a good concert hall. If you had, you'd know why. There's no comparison in the sound between that and what any electronic home sound system can produce.
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You'll believe anything. most of the problem is set-up. Quad sucked because nobody could set it up correctly in a typical home environment. I've heard lots of different music in many different places from DAR Constitution Hall in Dc to small clubs with acoustic and amplified material. 4 channels had to be recorded WELL which most wasn't and lousy speakers and small amps don't cut it. I've only heard ONE example that was pretty close using more than 2 channels. Movie:Aliens, when the drop ship crashes and the pipe goes skidding past to the left and behind the listener. Theatre - Uptown in DC. The rest has sounded like what is was...a gimmick. BTW you don't need some trillion dollar system to hear the musicians moving around on stage from "The Last Waltz" either, just good listening skills.
 
The best marketing is word of mouth. Insulting a bunch of forum members, accusing them of attacking you, and calling them liars, is not a good business strategy. Honestly, given the tone of these posts and others, I wouldn't think that whatever experiences this poster has in the industry are events that are visited upon everybody. Maybe your tone has created a few enemies, completely unrelated to the hobby as a whole. I know that I certainly would never consider your product, because I don't care for your attitude. That has nothing to do with collusion or being a shill. I just don't do business with certain types of people if I don't have to.
 
Wouldn't you guys agree that if you disagree so vehemently with each other you take to exchanging PMs? This is getting somewhat tedious :dunno:
 
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Positron. Dude. Head on over to diyaudio and see how a marketing master, Nelson Pass, communicates with his potential customers. You might learn a thing or two.
 
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