I shouldn't do this, but, - why that gear cost so much

[Soundminded]

Multi-channel was attempted again with SACD and DVD-A. People heard it, many liked it, some didn't, and a lot of people didn't want 5 or more speakers crowding their homes. Many didn't think it was right for their particular taste.

But that's not good enough. People like Soundminded don't think people can decide things for themselves. They don't think people can have personal preferences (like SET amps) that they disagree with. They think they know all, they know what everybody should do, and they think that people are all idiots, idiots who would be happy once they discover the light, which is of course provided by their unequaled knowledge. Because only they know the way, for everybody. Nobody uses a SET amp or 2-channel because they prefer it. Since its different than what they do, that person could only come to that different conclusion if they're stupid.

Screw that. Its just a hobby. I'll do whatever makes me happy. Not whatever makes somebody else's boat float.

"Screw that. Its just a hobby. I'll do whatever makes me happy. Not whatever makes somebody else's boat float."

To the people who make and sell this stuff it's not just a hobby, it's a business. Persuading you is the way they make their living. Ever read the now out of publication book "I Can Sell You Anything" written by a Madison Avenue Advertising Exec?

You seem very angry. I've always been at a loss to understand how people can get so emotional about different opinions about machines. This industry once promised it would eventually be able to recreate the sound of a live musical performance in a home from a recording. Having been beaten to a pulp by the problem and conceding defeat it's hard to tell what its goal is today but whatever it is, its best products keep costing more and more without getting any closer to what it once promised. It has taken its failed ideas and tweaked them every which way it can right down to the wall outlet and wires sitting on the floor. Worst of all, some of the most expensive equipment seems to me to be junk. But it's not my money, I don't really care one way or the other what people spend theirs on. However, as the title of Judge Judy Scheindlin's book says; "Don't Pee On My Leg and Tell Me It's Raining."

 

[NJguy]

Question

If hearing all the details is really where its at for most of you, wouldnt a pair of great headphones be the solution? Afterall headsets eliminate at least one problematic variable, listening space issues. And the sound is right there from the device to your ear, no middle man ( meaning the ac unit or dog barking or computer hum or wife). You also dont have to worry about high quality speaker wires or even speakers for that matter.

No?

 

[DougMac]

Doug, you are correct.

I understand the heat of the moment. There have been posts where I've hesitated, but hit the "send" button. More times than not, I wished I had thought a little longer.

Too bad on threads like this folks tend to talk past each other. Pretty soon the hyperbole is flying.

I'm a pretty practical (read cheap) guy. I was once in an audio store where they were just starting to check a new system they ordered for a customer. It was McIntosh based and ran about $35,000. To me that's high end. As we listened, they told me the story. The gentleman who bought it had a vintage McIntosh system. He had been diagnosed with cancer and had only a year or two to live. He was relatively well off and didn't have a family to leave his legacy. He decided to go out in style and wanted to know if new McIntosh gear was even better.

I totally understand him plunking down 35 large. It can be argued that he could have bought better cheaper, but sometimes our interests go beyond strictly performance. He had been served well by his vintage McIntosh system he acquired 40 years prior and McIntosh gear is classic.

BTW, it was a sweet sounding system. We listened mostly to classic Sinatra. It's hard to judge in a non living room environment just how much better it sounded than my system, but even in the store it bested my much more modest NAD based system. Lucky for me, I have other interests and considerations. Sadly, my income is not unlimited. Therefore I try to buy smart.

I know with a big investment I can do much better than what I have. However, like throwing off my wife of 43 years for a 20 something, it would involve some consequences.

 

[RamblinE]

These types of threads should just be flat out against the rules.

Divisiveness and the basic tenants of capitalism have no place here. Want to understand how a company can sell $1k cables and $20k amps?

Shut up and take some business/econ courses at your local community college for f*cks sake.

 

[RamblinE]

Question

If hearing all the details is really where its at for most of you, wouldnt a pair of great headphones be the solution? Afterall headsets eliminate at least one problematic variable, listening space issues. And the sound is right there from the device to your ear, no middle man ( meaning the ac unit or dog barking or computer hum or wife). You also dont have to worry about high quality speaker wires or even speakers for that matter.

No?

I don't just entirely believe that you're correct but I'd go as far as to say that you could put together an incredibly nice high-end headphone system for not much more than $10k based on the prices of the gear that's currently out there in the market place.

I've always thought headphones provided much more value per dollar than speakers. That's why I've steered in the direction I have. It makes me happy and I can afford it.

You know, as opposed to complain about high priced gear and rationalize reasons to mask my insecurities explaining why I'm sane and logical and everybody who buys more expensive gear than me is stupid/crazy/conned.

 

[grooveman]

Worst of all, some of the most expensive equipment seems to me to be junk."

Any examples or "hands on experience" using this so called "expensive junk equipment", that you've based your opinion on?

 

[Mystery]

It's not a hobby because it's expensive. It's a hobby because we enjoy doing it over other endeavors, or time-suckers, or obligations.

+1
Would like to add that not one gear is preferred by all.
There is a lot of trial and error to get the sound one prefers and that's how many end up owning the gear they have now.

 

[sebrof]

Any examples or "hands on experience" using this so called "expensive junk equipment", that you've based your opinion on?

Yes, I think at this point, after so many generalizations and abstract claims, specific examples would be a good idea.

This industry once promised it would eventually be able to recreate the sound of a live musical performance in a home from a recording. Having been beaten to a pulp by the problem and conceding defeat it's hard to tell what its goal is today but whatever it is, its best products keep costing more and more without getting any closer to what it once promised.

You keep suggesting that the audio industry has failed at recreating the live event in our homes and that somehow it makes it a big ripoff. What other home product(s) are better or more convincing, such as game consoles, TVs, computers...

However, as the title of Judge Judy Scheindlin's book says; "Don't Pee On My Leg and Tell Me It's Raining."

I'm beginning to think maybe the book title you should reference is "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance..."

 

[stereofanboy]

.........I think the OP's post, which I didn't read because it was more of a rant, does a disservice to this forum and it's members.

ALL AUDIO - NO ATTITUDE forever!!

..........Funniest post of the thread. It's like saying, "I've never tried mayonnaise because it tastes gross"

NOPE - I can scan quickly and see what was said but not writing properly (MEANING IN PARAGRAPHS) makes it unpalatable to read. Maybe you like it, I don't.

Trying to deflect attention to the form of the original post (you're right; it was not fun reading that), and weasel words (saying that scanning quickly to see what was said isn't reading) won't avail you here. You're caught, it's right there in black and white, and it's funny.

Don't feel bad. I'm sure you'll catch me making a funny mistake later and it'll all even out, but for now, it's you in the hot seat!

 

[DougMac]

And some HUGE benefits

I'll pass that along to my wife and see how far I get with either. ;-)

 

[Soundminded]

Any examples or "hands on experience" using this so called "expensive junk equipment", that you've based your opinion on?

I'm not mentioning any names for fear of being sued. However, one contributor on another blog reported his very expensive interconnects failed because the connectors came off. He seemed very gratified that the manufacturer repaired them for free. An amplifier manufacturer kept repairing his famous very expensive amplifier after it blew up again and again. Eventually the problem was traced to a "cracked" electrolytic capacitor in the power supply. Many times I see point to point wiring that looks like it was soldered by a ten year old. Many kits looked better. My very expensive first CD player had a misaligned clamper arm. After the third "fix" by the factory authorized repair center I took the whole thing apart and realigned it myself by inserting shims. What made the player so heavy? It wasn't a high end transport made from castings instead of plastic or a super power supply. It was two heavy pieces of sheet metal under the top and bottom outer covers worth no more than a dollar or two each. The only thing that was special about the unit was its superior D/A converter. It was bettered by a $200 unit a few years later that I still use. I'm not saying all high end equipment is junk but you'd expect if nothing else that when you pay a lot of money for something at the very least it would be well made. That's not always true. The reviews in hobbyist magazines never talk about quality of build nor do they mention a track record some products have for being unreliable. Where does the review end and the advertising hype begin? In hobbyist magazines I often find it hard to tell.

 

[nd4speed]

Well why don't you get involved and save us, audio superman?

LMFAO! There never seems to be a shortage of "industry experts" (who aren't in the industry) who believe with absolute conviction, how you should or should not spend your money (e.g. "I'm getting good sound, therefore the money I've spent in audio is all that anyone should ever have to spend"), or those who are on an unending quest for the rational in every nook and cranny of a largely irrational hobby.

 

[RamblinE]

Two things I look for in an industry expert. Actual experience in the industry and a positive attitude. Understanding your budget restraints goes a long way as well but it's less of a pre-rec than one might think.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[JohnVF]

The reviews in hobbyist magazines never talk about quality of build nor do they mention a track record some products have for being unreliable.

They mention those things quite frequently, but I get the feeling that you comprehend what you want to see and filter out what you don't. If you are dead-set on seeing evil in the world, you'll only see evil in the world, even if its 1% of what's in your field of view.

 

[grooveman]

I'm not saying all high end equipment is junk but you'd expect if nothing else that when you pay a lot of money for something at the very least it would be well made. That's not always true.

I guess there's always exceptions and the occasional lemon is possible when making an equipment purchase. That's why purchasing from a reliable dealer, who provides dealer support is key IMO.

As far as high end equipment build quality goes. The brands that I have or had experience owning, have always been very well made and perform exceptionally.

I've been a long time owner/user of Audio Research, Arcam and Sonus Faber equipment to name but a few. And have always been very satisfied with the build quality, performance and reliability with all the components I've purchased and used from these companies. The dealer support I've received from the stores I've purchased this gear from has been second to none as well!

 

[Jeffery]

LMFAO! There never seems to be a shortage of "industry experts" (who aren't in the industry) who believe with absolute conviction, how you should or should not spend your money (e.g. "I'm getting good sound, therefore the money I've spent in audio is all that anyone should ever have to spend"), or those who are on an unending quest for the rational in every nook and cranny of a largely irrational hobby.

Yep, if everybody would just run an SX-980 and some AR speakers, we would all be set.

 

[rcspkramp]

I'm not mentioning any names for fear of being sued. However, one contributor on another blog reported his very expensive interconnects failed because the connectors came off. He seemed very gratified that the manufacturer repaired them for free. An amplifier manufacturer kept repairing his famous very expensive amplifier after it blew up again and again. Eventually the problem was traced to a "cracked" electrolytic capacitor in the power supply. Many times I see point to point wiring that looks like it was soldered by a ten year old. Many kits looked better. My very expensive first CD player had a misaligned clamper arm. After the third "fix" by the factory authorized repair center I took the whole thing apart and realigned it myself by inserting shims. What made the player so heavy? It wasn't a high end transport made from castings instead of plastic or a super power supply. It was two heavy pieces of sheet metal under the top and bottom outer covers worth no more than a dollar or two each. The only thing that was special about the unit was its superior D/A converter. It was bettered by a $200 unit a few years later that I still use. I'm not saying all high end equipment is junk but you'd expect if nothing else that when you pay a lot of money for something at the very least it would be well made. That's not always true. The reviews in hobbyist magazines never talk about quality of build nor do they mention a track record some products have for being unreliable. Where does the review end and the advertising hype begin? In hobbyist magazines I often find it hard to tell.

Are there reviews of audio gear in magazines that aren't hobbyist magazines?

 

[JohnVF]

Magazines, blogs, user reviews, forums...they can all be referenced to get an overall feel whether something is worth checking out in person. Where is this world where people are beholden to one review? Look at many. Look at them from different countries (Google translate is your friend). Different forums will have different biases but they can help inform you if you go in knowing them. They probably won't all agree but I've found that the gist of a good product carries through across a variety of mediums. And you should still check out something in person if you can, or buy with a return policy. I always audition things at home before I purchase them. If something is cheaply made its pretty easy to tell when you use it.

 

[estreeter]

These types of threads should just be flat out against the rules.

Divisiveness and the basic tenants of capitalism have no place here. Want to understand how a company can sell $1k cables and $20k amps?

Shut up and take some business/econ courses at your local community college for f*cks sake.

OK - bullying people into 'shutting up' isnt my idea of a good time, but we seem to be masochists on AK, constantly navel-gazing about what it means to be an audiophile and whether we should be spending all our lovely money on audio toys.

A toy (and they are toys - I dont know of anyone who has actually died because they didnt have a turntable ..) is worth whatever value it brings to your life - simple as that. I would have very little use for a top tier camera and the lenses to go with it, but many here would pee their pants at the thought of owning their dream camera rig. Same goes for expensive watches, although that veers into the unfortunate reality of fakes that have been copied down to the tiniest detail - a rarity (AFAIK) in high-end audio. I walk past all manner of high-end boutique stores from Sydney to Hong Kong and wonder who the hell would spend that much money on shoes/clothes/fragrances, but it's their money and it must make people very happy, regardless of where or how cheaply the garment itself was made.

If Burmester/McIntosh/BAT could somehow convince me that one of their amps would justify the financial cost - whether it's by marketing or whatever - am I going to spend valuable time pulling the cover off my expensive toy and itemising the electronic components, or am I going to plug the thing in and (hopefully) enjoy the hell out of my music ? :scratch2:

Life's just too short to second guess ourselves, and there are so many choices at every conceivable price point that this particular 'debate' has worn thin for me. I'm all for AKers being educated consumers, but the obvious answer for those who loathe retail markups is to learn to solder and read a circuit diagram. :thmbsp:

 

[melofelo]

Where audio gear is concerned I think your own hearing is the best judge of how much to spend..and what exactly to spend it on.