Is Crosley a problem for Vinyl revival?

[mg196]

I know the bigger cities... Columbus Ohio, Lexington Kentucky, Richmond Virginia, Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, and others have audio stores, and in some cases more than one. This is the missing link, the audio store. The audio store I went to and bought my equipment went out of business back in the 80s. We need to bring the audio store back so the younger generation will see and hear what the older generation has been preaching to them.

There is this great thing called Amazon. I use it for everything from washing machines to light bulbs. Kids don't need audio stores. Some Internet research and an Internet connection is all I need to order audio components.

I am amazed at how "older" folks here think so little of "younger" music listeners. Maybe it's just bad translation on my part, but some of the comments about what kids/noobs need or should have is downright condescending.

Check out reddit's vinyl forum - reddit.com/r/vinyl - and check out tons of kids and noobs excited about all sorts of crappy equipment! That's what it's all about.

 

[Roivas]

Today, for some of us, the only store we have is a Best Buy. Even at BB you are limited to the brands they only carry. Most of the components they carry, I would not classify as audio quality. The other place we have is the internet. When it comes to shopping audio for some of us, it is very limited.

I know the bigger cities... Columbus Ohio, Lexington Kentucky, Richmond Virginia, Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, and others have audio stores, and in some cases more than one. This is the missing link, the audio store. The audio store I went to and bought my equipment went out of business back in the 80s. We need to bring the audio store back so the younger generation will see and hear what the older generation has been preaching to them.

Until then, the younger generation will be enwrapped with their I-Pods and smart phones, and they will believe their units provide the best music. Bring back the audio stores and watch the younger generation get wide eyed, mouth wide open with drool coming like a waterfall. The audio store will be the deal breaker to make the younger generation realize that the old farts knew what they were talking about.

The nice thing about the young generations, at least many of us (we're not a monolith), is that we're a lot more willing and able to go around the traditional route to get knowledge, information, and our things. I've been in a couple audio stores, but mostly walked away unimpressed. The internet has a lot of resources (cough, cough) where I can find out more than most of the people in those stores. And it's less biased than someone trying to make money off of me. That being said, I've patronized those stores, too, but I use them as a service, not a reference source.

And I've gotten access to some pretty amazing things, mostly through the internet. I bought my Pioneer PL-1000 through someone I met on AudioKarma, and my Technics 1610 MKII was found through a friend on Youtube. With one notable exception, I've had great experiences getting equipment through Ebay, too.

There's a whole wide world of wonderful people out there. Unlike the old days, we're not as limited by geography as we used to be.

And while some folks turn down their noses at iPods and MP3s, they've given young folks access to a much wider array of music than was possible for the average person in any generation before. True, the quality isn't the greatest, but if you're listening to music in the car or on the subway, that's not going to matter as much anyway (though I do love the images I've seen of George Harrison's car, which had a 45 changer in the dashboard). I listen to mediocre music on the go and high-quality stuff on the deck back home. In that way, I can enjoy music in a wider array of places and my friends and I can expose each other to new sounds and artists with tremendous ease.

Last week, I was with a friend. I used my phone's loudspeakers to introduce her to Janelle Monae and St. Vincent. The speakers are small, but they're good enough to enjoy a couple of songs (it's an HTC One, by the way, and is has better speakers than almost any portable device I've ever had. Not audiophile quality, but not bad at all - end of plug). This week, she told me she's been listening to the album at home. Likewise, she introduced me to the Tune-Yards, another strange new sound I'd never have discovered on my own.

So we may not do things the way they used to be done, but I think we're managing all right. I'm not trying to start a fight between age groups, but it's annoying to always hear folks saying how us young kids can't possibly understand what music really is without someone telling us. We learn by a mix of listening to others and self-discovery, just like every other generation has. The methods of hearing new stuff has changed, but that's really the only difference. People being born this year, like my infant niece, will discover music that means something to them in the same way my generation has, but the methods will probably have changed even more. I might offer some recommendations or offer to let her listen to my set-up when she's to the age where she'll actually care, but she'll be the one that actually chooses what to listen to and how to listen to it. That's the way it should be.

 

[Roivas]

There is this great thing called Amazon. I use it for everything from washing machines to light bulbs. Kids don't need audio stores. Some Internet research and an Internet connection is all I need to order audio components.

I am amazed at how "older" folks here think so little of "younger" music listeners. Maybe it's just bad translation on my part, but some of the comments about what kids/noobs need or should have is downright condescending.

Ditto.

 

[stevantr]

There is this great thing called Amazon. I use it for everything from washing machines to light bulbs. Kids don't need audio stores. Some Internet research and an Internet connection is all I need to order audio components.

I am amazed at how "older" folks here think so little of "younger" music listeners. Maybe it's just bad translation on my part, but some of the comments about what kids/noobs need or should have is downright condescending.

Check out reddit's vinyl forum - reddit.com/r/vinyl - and check out tons of kids and noobs excited about all sorts of crappy equipment! That's what it's all about.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

1) Amazon is not a good place to buy things. It is soooo much better to go to a local store and see what is available and try it out. If it is vinyl you are referring to, a local store is the place to learn about new music. You may go in for one thing and come out with some pretty amazing stuff. It doesn't happen online.

2) Checked out reddit. Seems like a lot of people asking What should I have. Maybe they should come over here so the old guys can tell them.
I'm guessing that the audience on reddit is younger than here, so it strikes me funny about this conversation. http://www.reddit.com/r/vinyl/comments/2qu194/why_would_anyone_ever_buy_a_cd
Even the young ones admit it is a fad.

 

[Guest105]

The nice thing about the young generations, at least many of us (we're not a monolith), is that we're a lot more willing and able to go around the traditional route to get knowledge, information, and our things. I've been in a couple audio stores, but mostly walked away unimpressed. The internet has a lot of resources (cough, cough) where I can find out more than most of the people in those stores. And it's less biased than someone trying to make money off of me. That being said, I've patronized those stores, too, but I use them as a service, not a reference source.

And I've gotten access to some pretty amazing things, mostly through the internet. I bought my Pioneer PL-1000 through someone I met on AudioKarma, and my Technics 1610 MKII was found through a friend on Youtube. With one notable exception, I've had great experiences getting equipment through Ebay, too.

There's a whole wide world of wonderful people out there. Unlike the old days, we're not as limited by geography as we used to be.

And while some folks turn down their noses at iPods and MP3s, they've given young folks access to a much wider array of music than was possible for the average person in any generation before. True, the quality isn't the greatest, but if you're listening to music in the car or on the subway, that's not going to matter as much anyway (though I do love the images I've seen of George Harrison's car, which had a 45 changer in the dashboard). I listen to mediocre music on the go and high-quality stuff on the deck back home. In that way, I can enjoy music in a wider array of places and my friends and I can expose each other to new sounds and artists with tremendous ease.

Last week, I was with a friend. I used my phone's loudspeakers to introduce her to Janelle Monae and St. Vincent. The speakers are small, but they're good enough to enjoy a couple of songs (it's an HTC One, by the way, and is has better speakers than almost any portable device I've ever had. Not audiophile quality, but not bad at all - end of plug). This week, she told me she's been listening to the album at home. Likewise, she introduced me to the Tune-Yards, another strange new sound I'd never have discovered on my own.

So we may not do things the way they used to be done, but I think we're managing all right. I'm not trying to start a fight between age groups, but it's annoying to always hear folks saying how us young kids can't possibly understand what music really is without someone telling us. We learn by a mix of listening to others and self-discovery, just like every other generation has. The methods of hearing new stuff has changed, but that's really the only difference. People being born this year, like my infant niece, will discover music that means something to them in the same way my generation has, but the methods will probably have changed even more. I might offer some recommendations or offer to let her listen to my set-up when she's to the age where she'll actually care, but she'll be the one that actually chooses what to listen to and how to listen to it. That's the way it should be.

Very well said.

 

[Roivas]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

1) Amazon is not a good place to buy things. It is soooo much better to go to a local store and see what is available and try it out. If it is vinyl you are referring to, a local store is the place to learn about new music. You may go in for one thing and come out with some pretty amazing stuff. It doesn't happen online.

2) Checked out reddit. Seems like a lot of people asking What should I have. Maybe they should come over here so the old guys can tell them.
I'm guessing that the audience on reddit is younger than here, so it strikes me funny about this conversation. http://www.reddit.com/r/vinyl/comments/2qu194/why_would_anyone_ever_buy_a_cd
Even the young ones admit it is a fad.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Amazon. As someone who's used it a lot, I've had much better experiences with Amazon than almost any audio store or dedicated turntable/audio equipment website. But if it's not your bag, you can shop wherever you'd like. That's what America's all about.

As for reddit, I think the other poster was trying to point out the energy, diversity, and enthusiasm you can find there by young people. Some of them might dismiss it as a fad, sure. Others are passionate about their new hobby that might become a lifelong love or might sputter out in a few years. Who knows? What's important is that people are enjoying talking about music and learning about it. Vinyl records are a part of the way young people are experiencing music for the first time in decades, and as soon as that happens there's a bunch of cynics who want to deride them for being hipsters.

Oh well.

The people who are enjoying themselves are doing it right, regardless of the quality of their table. Do I think they'd enjoy it more with a nicer set-up? A lot of times, yeah. But that's me. Everyone's different. The point is, there's real energy and enthusiasm, and it should be supported instead of being looked down on or condescended to.

And no generation is a monolith. There's a lot of folks here who are older who are nothing but helpful, supportive, and fun, just like there's a bunch of young cynics who aren't happy with anything. Different strokes...

 

[thebeez85]

...There's a lot of folks here who are older who are nothing but helpful, supportive, and fun, just like there's a bunch of young cynics who aren't happy with anything. Different strokes...

I've almost always enjoyed the company and sage wisdom of people like y'all than the cynics my age... (29)

 

[toxcrusadr]

Very interesting thread, and kudos to everyone engaging in reasoned debate without getting your knickers in a wad. Seriously.

Most of the things I was going to say have already been said. In particular: 1) All 'young people' are not the same, 2) In the Good Old Days there was plenty of crappy equipment, and 3) Crosley and ION gear sucks.

Tell you a funny story that I've probably already posted. A young 20-something I know wanted to get into vinyl. Brought me his TT which was skipping - an ION, I think. I took one look, the headshell was mounted wrong at the factory, rotated around so the stylus was at an angle tilting inward, so it would jump out of the groove on loud passages. Held on with one screw to the tonearm, not adjustable due to a dimple in the tonearm for the screw tip. And the stylus suspension was shot - he'd been putting nickels on it to keep it in the groove. Stylus not replaceable either. Before I could fix him up with a decent vintage table, he bought another one - and was so happy it had built in speakers! Think about that. I think it was $79, an amount which I could have exchanged for a decent table with a new stylus.

So yeah, these tables are crap, and there is not much quality gear in the stores to look at and see the difference. I hope the vintage records survive this fad. :sigh: But the inexperienced can learn (or at least some of them will), just like we did.

 

[majick47]

That's the problem and why they have a Crosley or ION they are shopping on Amazon, the blind leading the blind. I'm old school tire kicker and I don't trust photos and glib descriptions of audio nirvana when I'm shopping for anything. I'll spend hours researching items, plastic fly weight isn't in my dictionary. I'm used to heavy/solid/quality construction that was built to last a life time. Doubt you will find anything like that on Amazon, just cheap junk from China that will self destruct just as the warranty runs out if your lucky to get that far.

 

[restorer-john]

Personally, I think it's great that a company is producing a turntable system(s) that young people and old people want to buy. There is a market for a cheap, all in one vinyl solution, just as there was in the 50s,60s and 70s.

As another poster said, vinyl reproduction still is a magical process. I think dragging a diamond across a piece of black plastic and getting half decent sound out of it captivates all ages.

It's just like the 'distressed' timber furniture, the rubbed paint picture frames, the half worn out denim jeans, homewares that look old but aren't- people want things that hark back to the past but are actually new. The world got sick of perfection.

In the meantime, I buy up CDs for 50c each because this silly little detour is unrelated to high fidelity, it's just a pleasant distraction.

I bought a copy of Fleetwood Mac Tango in the Night yesterday on CD for $1. My DMM vinyl pressing (mint) of the same album sounds good, but not even remotely close to the CD.

 

[thinker10]

Probably not but as soon North American company like Orbit and ProJect that already a very low price table 1lower there cost and if Japanese Company start making table Made in Japan again maybe just 2 models

Thinks will start to look bad for Crosley and Company

Thank You

 

[ClinicaTerra]

Personally, I think it's great that a company is producing a turntable system(s) that young people and old people want to buy. There is a market for a cheap, all in one vinyl solution, just as there was in the 50s,60s and 70s.

As another poster said, vinyl reproduction still is a magical process. I think dragging a diamond across a piece of black plastic and getting half decent sound out of it captivates all ages.

It's just like the 'distressed' timber furniture, the rubbed paint picture frames, the half worn out denim jeans, homewares that look old but aren't- people want things that hark back to the past but are actually new. The world got sick of perfection.

In the meantime, I buy up CDs for 50c each because this silly little detour is unrelated to high fidelity, it's just a pleasant distraction.

I bought a copy of Fleetwood Mac Tango in the Night yesterday on CD for $1. My DMM vinyl pressing (mint) of the same album sounds good, but not even remotely close to the CD.

Interesting that you mentioned Fleetwood Mac's Tango in the Night -- I am VERY familiar with this release, owning both the LP and CD (and, at one point, the cassette) as it contains what I feel was one of their best songs that never got enough traction, "Seven Wonders;" at any rate, are you saying the CD release sounds THAT good compared to the LP? I have Warner's original release of this album on vinyl LP and will have to dig it out now to compare to the CD (which sounds pretty great, from what I remember)...

Do you own remastered versions of either the CD or LP?

 

[QRanc]

Yes, but it is a fad. The vinyl revival will not last, just as the Polaroid revival will not last. Yes, look it up Polaroid 600 film is being made by some outside company because the cameras are so popular.

I'm not much out of the age of the typical hipster, hell my brother lives in Willamsburg, so I think I have a bit of an understanding on this. Many of my friends have gotten rid of their CD collection and only listen to vinyl. I do not know of a single one of this group that has gotten anything better than an Ion table, except for the people I gave decent tables to.

They may state it is about sound quality because that is what they read, but its not. It is about what is cool, and cool things come and go. Vinyl will once again disappear to be replaced by the next cool thing (anyone want a LD or betamax?) and vinyl production will dwindle down and we'll be back to 1992.

Will some move up to better tables? Absolutely, but the hi-fi crowd is a small crowd and it will stay that way, especially as the audiophile lifestyle becomes more of a high income luxury than an enjoyment of good music.

I completely agree that it's a fad. I disagree that it will dwindle down to pre '92 numbers. I think there will be a good number of people who have and will continue to embrace the format.

 

[4Play]

There is this great thing called Amazon. I use it for everything from washing machines to light bulbs. Kids don't need audio stores. Some Internet research and an Internet connection is all I need to order audio components.

I am amazed at how "older" folks here think so little of "younger" music listeners. Maybe it's just bad translation on my part, but some of the comments about what kids/noobs need or should have is downright condescending.

Check out reddit's vinyl forum - reddit.com/r/vinyl - and check out tons of kids and noobs excited about all sorts of crappy equipment! That's what it's all about.

If they can't touch it, feel it, and see it, they will not be interested. For some of us, gone is the day that you could walk into an audio store, check out all the different brands and models, and some even had listening rooms where you could sit and listen, undisturbed from the other people in the store.

I cherished my weekend pilgrimage to my favorite audio store. Talk to the guys who worked there and who I knew by their first name, ask about the latest stuff coming out. I would spend several hours there and have the time of my life.

 

[restorer-john]

My LP is an original release Direct Metal Mastering (DMM) which was pretty much as good as I could get when I bought it new in 1987. It is in mint condition and I always thought it sounded pretty good. So good, I never bothered to buy the CD- until yesterday...

Do you own remastered versions of either the CD or LP?

 

[stevantr]

So we may not do things the way they used to be done, but I think we're managing all right. I'm not trying to start a fight between age groups, but it's annoying to always hear folks saying how us young kids can't possibly understand what music really is without someone telling us.

I don't think people are saying that. Younger people are lucky. They were born into a time where they had choices of things to listen to music. 50 years ago you had a turntable and an AM radio, that is it. A hi-end system then would have been a system with 2 speakers to listen to the new "living-stereo" records. Things have changed a ton since then. They have gotten better.

I think the frustration from the older crowd is, why listen to the junk they had to listen to in the 60's when things got so so much better in the 70's and 80's. It may be a money thing, a space thing, or something else, I don't know. There are so many great vintage systems that can be had for cheap that will blow away a Crosley or an Ion and will actual make vinyl sound good. If you aren't going to try to make it sound good then at least listen to something that does, like any digital format. You have that option now.

I have a buddy that bought a modern yamaha receiver and some cheapo athena speakers for about $75 and I gave him a Pio PL-510 to spin some vinyl. He was one really happy guy. I went back to his place a little while later and the Pioneer was sitting there and I went to use it. The head felt a little heavy and I noticed he had cranked the weight all the way down on it. His reasoning is that it improved bass and was less likely to skip. I suppose, but what a waste of a table, vinyl and stylus. I suppose some people should just stick to digital.

 

[Tom Brennan]

1) Amazon is not a good place to buy things.

I disagree, vehemently. Books, hi-fi gear, clothing, shoes, housewares--there's damned little my wife and I don't buy from them. Prices are usually right and their return policy is liberal as well as easy to use.

 

[for_p1]

Back in the 50s and 60s, the console was the most popular unit in the home. Whether it be radio or vinyl, this and the TV was two important fixtures in the home.

In the 70s, the small all-in-one was the cream of the crop. That is until you went to the audio store for the first time, and then you realize there is a whole different world out there. This is where you learned about high fidelity, total harmonic distortion, signal to noise ratio, etc. You learned that separates is better than a receiver. It is here that are eyes were finally opened to the world of audio.

Today, for some of us, the only store we have is a Best Buy. Even at BB you are limited to the brands they only carry. Most of the components they carry, I would not classify as audio quality. The other place we have is the internet. When it comes to shopping audio for some of us, it is very limited.

I know the bigger cities... Columbus Ohio, Lexington Kentucky, Richmond Virginia, Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, and others have audio stores, and in some cases more than one. This is the missing link, the audio store. The audio store I went to and bought my equipment went out of business back in the 80s. We need to bring the audio store back so the younger generation will see and hear what the older generation has been preaching to them.

Until then, the younger generation will be enwrapped with their I-Pods and smart phones, and they will believe their units provide the best music. Bring back the audio stores and watch the younger generation get wide eyed, mouth wide open with drool coming like a waterfall. The audio store will be the deal breaker to make the younger generation realize that the old farts knew what they were talking about.

Audio stores follows people capable to shop there, which means spending few thousands on audio gear. For others it either BB or on-line stores like Amazon. You won't find 3 chip projectors in BB either. Good audio is like good video - is a hobby and a privilege. Others are happy with $500 LCD TV and Crosley TT.

 

[Tom Brennan]

The nice thing about the young generations, at least many of us (we're not a monolith), is that we're a lot more willing and able to go around the traditional route to get knowledge, information, and our things. I've been in a couple audio stores, but mostly walked away unimpressed. The internet has a lot of resources (cough, cough) where I can find out more than most of the people in those stores. And it's less biased than someone trying to make money off of me. That being said, I've patronized those stores, too, but I use them as a service, not a reference source.

And I've gotten access to some pretty amazing things, mostly through the internet. I bought my Pioneer PL-1000 through someone I met on AudioKarma, and my Technics 1610 MKII was found through a friend on Youtube. With one notable exception, I've had great experiences getting equipment through Ebay, too.

There's a whole wide world of wonderful people out there. Unlike the old days, we're not as limited by geography as we used to be.

And while some folks turn down their noses at iPods and MP3s, they've given young folks access to a much wider array of music than was possible for the average person in any generation before. True, the quality isn't the greatest, but if you're listening to music in the car or on the subway, that's not going to matter as much anyway (though I do love the images I've seen of George Harrison's car, which had a 45 changer in the dashboard). I listen to mediocre music on the go and high-quality stuff on the deck back home. In that way, I can enjoy music in a wider array of places and my friends and I can expose each other to new sounds and artists with tremendous ease.

Last week, I was with a friend. I used my phone's loudspeakers to introduce her to Janelle Monae and St. Vincent. The speakers are small, but they're good enough to enjoy a couple of songs (it's an HTC One, by the way, and is has better speakers than almost any portable device I've ever had. Not audiophile quality, but not bad at all - end of plug). This week, she told me she's been listening to the album at home. Likewise, she introduced me to the Tune-Yards, another strange new sound I'd never have discovered on my own.

So we may not do things the way they used to be done, but I think we're managing all right. I'm not trying to start a fight between age groups, but it's annoying to always hear folks saying how us young kids can't possibly understand what music really is without someone telling us. We learn by a mix of listening to others and self-discovery, just like every other generation has. The methods of hearing new stuff has changed, but that's really the only difference. People being born this year, like my infant niece, will discover music that means something to them in the same way my generation has, but the methods will probably have changed even more. I might offer some recommendations or offer to let her listen to my set-up when she's to the age where she'll actually care, but she'll be the one that actually chooses what to listen to and how to listen to it. That's the way it should be.

Just quoting a long post in it's entirety to make a one sentence comment, that's all.

 

[ClinicaTerra]

My LP is an original release Direct Metal Mastering (DMM) which was pretty much as good as I could get when I bought it new in 1987. It is in mint condition and I always thought it sounded pretty good. So good, I never bothered to buy the CD- until yesterday...

I, too, bought that LP new when it came out in '87 -- but I don't think I have the DMM variant; are you saying your CD version sounds even BETTER than that LP? :scratch2: