Just ordered the VPI 16.5 Record Cleaning Machine

[seek/destroy]

Just cleaned "The Way of All Flesh" by Gojira and played the first side. I must have a similar cartridge to Mark, because there is no noise riding the groove. This record was bought directly from the label and never played. I dont think i've yet to hear a metal album on vinyl sound this good.

This 3 step process is not fast...its thorough. A double LP like the one I just cleaned one LP of will probably take close to 20 minutes to clean if not longer. I suppose the way to work it is to clean your records as you buy them and not necessarily when you play them.

Mark, have you found that records sound different when they are fresh off the cleaner as opposed to cleaned and then stored and then played at a later date?

I've got a bunch of used vinyl from the auction site coming this week. I know someone will want to know, so here's the list:

1. Old Man Gloom - Meditations In B
2. Old Man Gloom - Seminar II: The Holy Rites Of Primitivism Regressionism
3. Old Man Gloom - Seminar III: Zozobra
4. Queen - A Night At The Opera (DCC pressing)
5. Retribution Gospel Choir - Retribution Gospel Choir (# 0666/1500)
6. Harvey Milk - Life...The Best Game In Town
7. Graham Nash - Songs For Beginners
8. Genesis - Seconds Out (Japan pressing)
9. Gehenna - Negotium Perambulans In Tenebris
10. Dead Child - Attack
11. Corrupted - Paso Inferior
12. Akron/Family - Set 'Em Wild, Set 'Em Free
13. Jawbox - For Your Own Special Sweetheart

Also on their way (new)
1. Harvey Milk - A Small Turn Of Human Kindness
2. Chickens In Love - Various Artists

 

[Neurasthenic]

Oh man... I'm literally kicking myself for not picking up that Gojira album when I spotted it on Amazon a while back. I hadn't yet realized how good it is.

So, to verify, you've been cleaning your new records before playing them? I need to get into that habit.

 

[markd51]

Just cleaned "The Way of All Flesh" by Gojira and played the first side. I must have a similar cartridge to Mark, because there is no noise riding the groove. This record was bought directly from the label and never played. I dont think i've yet to hear a metal album on vinyl sound this good.

This 3 step process is not fast...its thorough. A double LP like the one I just cleaned one LP of will probably take close to 20 minutes to clean if not longer. I suppose the way to work it is to clean your records as you buy them and not necessarily when you play them.

Mark, have you found that records sound different when they are fresh off the cleaner as opposed to cleaned and then stored and then played at a later date?

I've got a bunch of used vinyl from the auction site coming this week. I know someone will want to know, so here's the list:

1. Old Man Gloom - Meditations In B
2. Old Man Gloom - Seminar II: The Holy Rites Of Primitivism Regressionism
3. Old Man Gloom - Seminar III: Zozobra
4. Queen - A Night At The Opera (DCC pressing)
5. Retribution Gospel Choir - Retribution Gospel Choir (# 0666/1500)
6. Harvey Milk - Life...The Best Game In Town
7. Graham Nash - Songs For Beginners
8. Genesis - Seconds Out (Japan pressing)
9. Gehenna - Negotium Perambulans In Tenebris
10. Dead Child - Attack
11. Corrupted - Paso Inferior
12. Akron/Family - Set 'Em Wild, Set 'Em Free
13. Jawbox - For Your Own Special Sweetheart

Also on their way (new)
1. Harvey Milk - A Small Turn Of Human Kindness
2. Chickens In Love - Various Artists

S/D,
No, I notice no difference played right after cleaning, or played 3 months later, they sound the same. In fact, due to different reasons, and that my analog front end has been a continual work in progress, things have been sounding better and better!

As one example off the top of my head, a DCC Jethro Tull Aqualung I must've bought about 9 years ago, and initially was cleaned with LAST products, and more recently cleaned with AIVS about a good year ago. I can pull this LP out, put it on the Platter, give it a quick touch up with either my Audioquest, or Hunt EDA Carbon Fiber Brush, fire up the Table, and am amazed at the clarity of sound, and the silence of this vinyl.

The acoustic guitar intro on the first cut "My God" sounds like it's right in the room. Same with the Flute on "Mother Goose". Was lucky to get this LP when I did, I've seen copies now pushing about $165 on the auction site, and some other sites.

I was reluctant to mention this, when you first mentioned you bought the AIVS from Elusive Disc, rather than direct from OsageAudio. Not trying to rain on your parade, and I'll explain why in a second.

As the owner of OsageAudio, Jim Pendelton recently informed me about 3-4 weeks ago, there was some improvements made to many of the AIVS products.

This being I believe, the Enzymatic, Super Cleaner, Archivist, and One Step Formula #6. The only formula unchanged, was the #15 Pre-Cleaner. As I understand, all the others have gotten a component in them that is in the #15, and they now work much faster than the older formulas.

Jim stated, that now, instead of 5-10 minutes soak time that "may be needed" with some records, that this time has been decreased to only roughly 2-4 minutes.

The newest product in his lineup, introduced about 1-1/2 years ago, or so, the #15 Pre-Cleaner is a fantastic product, and I'm finding I'm using this on all records first, prior to going onto the Enzymatic Formula, Super Cleaner, etc.

I'm not sure you have gotten the newer formulas, and I suppose you could shoot Bob Bantz at Elusive Disc an email, or phone call, asking him.

What I will say, is I have yet to use these newer revised formulas myself.
And that I want to assure you that in no way should you assume you have bought some inferior products if they are the older AIVS versions.

I have no reservartions in saying that these products are all fantastic, and I now won't use any other cleaners on my records. I believe your, or others results will be similar to mine. That if you did choose to try others, that you would turn full circle, quickly back to AIVS products.

So, about the only downside to the older versions, might be a slight increase in soak times needed. This of course is a variable, dependent upon the condition of the record. I generally let all steps, with the exception of the Pure Water Rinse sit 4-5 minutes upon a record. My cleaning times are similar you yours. Yes, at times it can feel a bit of a slow process, especially when you then think you may have 100's, if not 1000's of records you now want to clean.

With the Pure Water Rinse, I apply, rotate the record a couple revolutions, holding the brush upon the record, then vacuum off quickly.

Do insure a little bit of time, that you are positive your records are bone dry, before placing into a new Sleeve. That often, with liberal application of fluids, the fluids can run over the lip of the record, to the cleaned underside. Always check that that underside lip is dry before storage. Mark

I've always ordered direct from OsageAudio. Mark

 

[seek/destroy]

Oh man... I'm literally kicking myself for not picking up that Gojira album when I spotted it on Amazon a while back. I hadn't yet realized how good it is.

So, to verify, you've been cleaning your new records before playing them? I need to get into that habit.

I guess I got REALLY lucky, the day I decided to see about Gojira vinyl, Prosthetic was having a sale. I thought they might have copies left and I just checked for you but they dont. They were selling imperfect copies."The packaging isn't in perfect condition, there may be some dents! But vinyl is PERFECT and will play flawlessly!" and they were $7!!! Its still around, you can find a copy if you're patient. But yeah, GREAT album.

 

[markd51]

S/D,
Jim Pendelton of Osage wrote to me today, making mention that he began shipping his new formulations to his dealer network back in October, and that Elusive Disc has already ordered shipments of the new AIVS Products 3 times already. So, more than likely, you do have the new, faster working formulas from AIVS. Mark

 

[seek/destroy]

S/D,
Jim Pendelton of Osage wrote to me today, making mention that he began shipping his new formulations to his dealer network back in October, and that Elusive Disc has already ordered shipments of the new AIVS Products 3 times already. So, more than likely, you do have the new, faster working formulas from AIVS. Mark

Good, errr...GREAT to know! So they don't have to sit for as long as it even states in the included literature? THAT would be really good news. And Mark, thank you for sharing all of your knowledge and insights when it comes to record cleaning. I think we are ALL truly appreciative.

 

[markd51]

Good, errr...GREAT to know! So they don't have to sit for as long as it even states in the included literature? THAT would be really good news. And Mark, thank you for sharing all of your knowledge and insights when it comes to record cleaning. I think we are ALL truly appreciative.

S/D, I'm always happy to be of some help. I enjoy sharing "what I've learned from others that are "smarter than I!' lol So many good people have helped me over the years, and it's great that at times, I then can help others.

I think with any of the AIVS Formluas, you wouldn't have to worry at all, if you have a really horrid looking/playing record, and then feel the need to apply a second application. It seems all of them, including the Super Cleaner which contains a small amout of Lab Grade Iso Alcohol, are harmless to vinyl. That his products do all of the good things, and right things, and none of the bad.

I know it can be clearly seen that I am a huge fan of his products. I cannot say enough good about them. They appear to be highly perfected products for those who wish the very best results for their highly cherished vinyl.

If I upped my Analog System to a top of the line Galibier Design Stelvio Table, Triplanar Arm, and a $5K to $7K Cartridge, in other words about $40K worth of Table-Arm-Cartridge, I'd still be using AIVS.These products won't ever be a "bottleneck". Mark

 

[markd51]

One topic I'd like to discuss again here, are the Vacuum Wand Tubes on VPI Machines.

Besides having different type Tubes for cleaning 45's, and Shellacs, VPI now has at least one other type of Vaccum Wand Tube, made from Delrin, and the price I believe is $70. It is said by VPI to have a lifetime warrantee against breakage.

But, at present, VPI does not make-sell replacement protective Strips for their Wands.
I have recently discussed this matter with Mike at VPI, and he had said that they are seriously considering offering the replacement strips in the future.

No matter the material used for the Wand itself, which could be a variety of materials, there will come a point in time, that the strips will wear out, and it should be noted that this is a very important aspect of any machine which uses a Wand Type Suction arrangement.

As of present, and a thanks to Meggy, who made me aware some time back, that Disc Doctor does sell replacement Strips that will work on the VPI Tubes (I believe 4 Strips for $15)

I know of one other company supposedly selling these strips, and the Company is Okki Nokki, in which one dealer I'm aware of in USA, is Needledoctor.

What I don't know, is what their dimensions are, and if I remember correctly, they will need to be a minimum length of 100mm to be a possible suitable replacement on the VPI Wands. I'd like emailing them to ask this question?

About the only other company I can think of that might sell these strips, is Clearaudio, whom which I also understand from discussions, makes the Okki Nokki RCM.

I know Jim Pendelton of OsageAudio is also a Clearaudio Dealer, and I could ask him if Clearaudio makes these strips, and are they available for purchase? If they are, he'll be able to easily supply the dimensions, and whether they could be a compatible fit for the VPI Wands?

If one is careful, and perhaps at least pre-dusts a dirty record prior to RCM cleaning, I figure one should be able to get about 300 LP's cleaned, before considering replacement of the Protective Strips. Of course, your mileage may vary. Mark

 

[DougMac]

Wand Tubes

One topic I'd like to discuss again here, are the Vacuum Wand Tubes on VPI Machines.

Besides having different type Tubes for cleaning 45's, and Shellacs, VPI now has at least one other type of Vaccum Wand Tube, made from Delrin, and the price I believe is $70. It is said by VPI to have a lifetime warrantee against breakage.

But, at present, VPI does not make-sell replacement protective Strips for their Wands.Mark

Here's what I did. I researched and found a company on the internet that sold plastic tubes that are the same outside diameter as the VPI tubes. They come in four foot lengths. They were so inexpensive (I can't remember, but I think around $5/tube) that I bought four.

I used a chop saw to cut them to length, then used sandpaper to smooth and round the edges. I have a router base for my Sears version of the Dremel and set up a jig. First, I notched the end to account for the postioning pin in the VPI tube base. I then measured 12", 10" and 7" records to get the width and position of the slots. I divided up my tubes and rigged a jig to cut slots for each size record.

There are plugs available at home improvement stores that fit the end of the tube perfectly. Also, I went to a piece goods store and bought a roll of black velvet ribbon. I cut the ribbon in strips and carefully glued them on the tubes. I first used Borden "Dots" adhesive, but it's water soluble. I switched to contact cement carefully applied with a small, stiff brush.

I have two tubes for each record size, plus plenty of spares. After removing as much dirt as possible with cotton makeup pads, I re-wet the record with cleaner and vacuum using the "cleaner" wand. I then spray the record with rinse water and vacuum using the "rinse" wand. I have two tube bases, so changing from one to the other takes only a second.

I use this system on my DIY cleaner.

 

[MikeCh]

S/D, Mark and all,

I too am a convert of the AIVS formulas. I tried my DIY cleaner against them and there is zero comparison. The AIVS #15 + Ultra Pure Water rinse is just amazing. I've even tried just using grocery store distilled water instead of the UPW to follow up after the #15 and it's no contest there too. The UPW rinses/removes the #15 perfectly and leaves the vinyl in the best shape that's possible.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the AIVS solutions are not going to fix scratches, warps or other physical damage but if it's a matter of cleaning off pizza, greasy fingers, 40 year old jacket dust, mold release, etc. it really is the right stuff to use.

I'm using a VPI 17 so it's got the built in dispenser/brush. The dispenser is activated to lay down enough cleaning solution (as the platter rotates 3-4 times both directions with the brush on the LP) to form an even puddle/film of the cleaner and is left to soak for a minute or two. In our dry climate, I can't let it soak too much more than that without adding more fluid due to evaporation. Next I vacuum off the #15 then follow up with the rinse step using an Osage brush which is the perfect tool for pushing/distributing the puddle of UP water around as the platter turns. Vac the rinse water off and flip the LP for the next side.

Having no experience with the other cleaners mentioned in this thread, all I can say is that since I started with the AIVS there's really no reason to look elsewhere.

Enjoy,
Mike

 

[markd51]

Mike/All,
I'm certainly no Lab Chemist, or have any degrees, or highly technical knowledge about waters, it is a very complex topic. If you've all heard of "Chemical Ali", then they should've named me "Chemical Dummy"!

My shortcomings were usually Mathematics, and Chemisty is a highly mathematical science.

As I understand though, the higher the purity of a water, once it is stripped of just about everything, the more agressive those waters then become.

Like they are then acting as a cleaner themselves. Of course all record cleaning products largely contain water as its #1 base ingredient in the solution.

I'm not entirely sure, but it could also relate to the certain processes that are used to purify water, such as Deionization that makes these waters more agressive in use.

I've been told that these highly purified waters then even become actually poinsonous, not to ever be drank. Whether this is actual fact, or not, I am unsure, will certainly not test them in such a manner either to find out!
Perhaps small amounts for a one occasion taste-sip wouldn't kill you.

Reckon with that said, all record cleaning formulas should always be kept in a safe place if you have small children around.

The AIVS Pure Water is claimed to have a much higher purity (50 times purer) than just single step distilled water.

Jim's explained thing to me often, but being the chemical dummy that I am, a lot of it goes over my head. All I do know, is they work, and like a good food recipe you sometimes luckily hit on, why change, or alter it? Mark

 

[seek/destroy]

All~

My new vinyl purchases arrived today and they all look great...were even sealed though not advertised as such. Anyway, more cleaning this evening. I am learning more with each cleaning. Tonight, for the first time, I experienced the spindle getting hot. This wasnt something I was checking for, I just happened to touch it when flipping sides, so here I sit in the other room typing while it cools. Two things i've changed in my cleaning routine:
1. I now start with a few blasts of canned air and then a few rotations with my DAK brush (same as Hunt Brush).
2. I am only vacuuming for one rotation now, down from two which I THINK was recommended. One rotation seems to do the job and doesn't add any static.

I also cleaned my first transparent record tonight. They're certainly harder to judge how much fluid you have on.

 

[markd51]

All~

My new vinyl purchases arrived today and they all look great...were even sealed though not advertised as such. Anyway, more cleaning this evening. I am learning more with each cleaning. Tonight, for the first time, I experienced the spindle getting hot. This wasnt something I was checking for, I just happened to touch it when flipping sides, so here I sit in the other room typing while it cools. Two things i've changed in my cleaning routine:
1. I now start with a few blasts of canned air and then a few rotations with my DAK brush (same as Hunt Brush).
2. I am only vacuuming for one rotation now, down from two which I THINK was recommended. One rotation seems to do the job and doesn't add any static.

I also cleaned my first transparent record tonight. They're certainly harder to judge how much fluid you have on.

When I first used my 16.5, it shut down from thermal overload, and wouldn't work for about 15 minutes. I assume it was the Platter Motor, because the vacuum motor gets used less. The spindle was awfully hot.

Where-how the motor is protected, I don't know, but it must have something in the mix that will cause it to shut down due to excess heat.

It never happened again, and as Mike at VPI said, probably the motor was a bit tight and needed to break in. It never happened again during the dozen times I used it before the fan installation.

With that spindle heat, I did note slight warpage of the records. Every one that then was placed on the Platter would dish when taking off due to spindle heat. I assume they then relax, and go back to the way they were, but on the very first day I did immediately see the need of a cooling fan.

After the cooling fan mod, my spindle now doesn't even get luke warm, let alone warm, or hot. Since mine isn't in a permanent installation, I chose to just wire the fan into the incoming AC. Otherwise, I would've mounted another switch at the front Panel.

Only one downside to the fan mod. With another 4" hole at the rear of the machine, the machine is slightly louder when the vacuum motor is activated. Otherwise, the fan is dead quiet.

I've heard of others just mounting the fan on the bottom cover, where the 3 slots are. If it were me, and I chose to mount it there, I probably would've enlarged the 3 slots, converting them to a round 4" hole, same size as the fan. And re-positioned one of the insulation sheets to allow better air passage.

Having the machine suck air from the machine seems to be the best plan to me, instead of having any possibility of dirt-dust-etc blown into the machine.

There is air space around the Platter Motor Shaft, and Metal Mounting Plate on the top deck, so in that scenario, the machine will draw air from that area, and pull it down around the Platter Motor, thus cooling it.

The only idea I didn't like about the Fan being mounted to the Bottom Cover, was in the event of possible Tank Leakage, the fluids could possibly leak directly onto the Fan. Mark

 

[Edriz]

Help!! As I mentioned already, my VPI came with a felt mat. I got to say, I aint likin it. Even the slightest pressure from the lock nut makes the outter edges of the LP raise.

I think switchin to a cork would solve or at least help stop some of that. Should i go directly to VPI and get the cork or does it matter where i get a cork mat from?

So far, I havent had any problem with overheating like I heard some have. Maybe I'm not doing as many records at a time. I do stop the motor between cycles though and usually can only do about 5-7 records ata time before I must sit down.

 

[pioneervato]

Help!! As I mentioned already, my VPI came with a felt mat. I got to say, I aint likin it. Even the slightest pressure from the lock nut makes the outter edges of the LP raise.

I think switchin to a cork would solve or at least help stop some of that. Should i go directly to VPI and get the cork or does it matter where i get a cork mat from?

So far, I havent had any problem with overheating like I heard some have. Maybe I'm not doing as many records at a time. I do stop the motor between cycles though and usually can only do about 5-7 records ata time before I must sit down.

Yeah, you probably should replace the felt mat with the cork mat. Elusive Disc has them for 13.99. You might went to get an extra while you are at it.

When I had my VPI 16.5 I usually would clean about a dozen or so in one session and never experienced any thermal shut down. If you do, you could try raising the machine up higher off the surface it sits on by placing hockey pucks (or something) so that you can get a little more circulation and maybe it will improve heat dissipation.

Of course the other solution would be to do the fan mod as so many have done.

 

[Edriz]

Yeah, you probably should replace the felt mat with the cork mat. Elusive Disc has them for 13.99. You might went to get an extra while you are at it.

When I had my VPI 16.5 I usually would clean about a dozen or so in one session and never experienced any thermal shut down. If you do, you could try raising the machine up higher off the surface it sits on by placing hockey pucks (or something) so that you can get a little more circulation and maybe it will improve heat dissipation.

Of course the other solution would be to do the fan mod as so many have done.

Thanks Pioneer, I'm headin over to Elusive now!!

Yup, spent $81 over at Elusive. Not a good place for me to go. Luckily I didnt even look at buying more music,whew. I narrowly escaped. I did get a cork mat, new vacuum tube holder and vacuum tube. Since i dont know how old the originals are buying a used VPI, I figured get new and hang on to the older tubes just incase. The original felt pad on the vacuum tube look good to me but what the hell, its only money,right?

 

[seek/destroy]

A quick note this morning, I've found that letting the Step 1 enzymic fluid sit on the record for at least 10 minutes seems to make a big difference. I've done this for a handful of LPs now and they have been quieter that previous cleaned LPs.

 

[Edriz]

I just got the Audio Intellegent Enzymic fluid. I've done a few records with it so far and I'm not sure i like it. To me, it seems to leave a light film on the record even after vacuuming. I also do a rince after but to me I can still see a film.

I been using the MoFi Super wash and that leaves the records bright and shinny. Am I missing something here ? The records sound good after using the AI, I just like the records to be nice and shinny, ya know

 

[Edriz]

A quick note this morning, I've found that letting the Step 1 enzymic fluid sit on the record for at least 10 minutes seems to make a big difference. I've done this for a handful of LPs now and they have been quieter that previous cleaned LPs.

If I waited that long to clean a record, I'd have to die and come back to life to clean all my vinyl. Even doing one to lay, Id loose interest in hearing it :lmao:

On real dirty records, I may leave a record to soak a couple minutes but wouldnt even consider 10. Can you really tell a difference waiting 3-4 minutes vs. 10?

 

[osageaudio]

Hello Edriz,

Just to clarify, if used as directed the Enzymatic Formula will not leave a film or residue of any kind on its own, but there is the possibility of all the contaminants not being dissolved in a given example. Please keep in mind that the Enzymatic Formula is not a complete cleaning solution and is not intended to be used alone or with just a rinse to achieve the best results. All of the formulary components needed to clean a record are not in that formula. It is designed to be used with either the Super Cleaner Formula or the Premium Archivist Formula in order to provide a complete "set" of cleaning components.

There is information about this in the instruction folder that you received with your order and also on our website. Please get in touch if you have any questions about this.

Sometimes a highly glossy sheen on a record can be an indication of a film, but this will vary depending upon the vinyl formulation. The sheen and the "rainbow effect" is mostly caused by the esters of stearic acid in the vinyl formulation. Excessed of this on the surface of the record will sometimes make it shinier.


By the way, our updated formulas will work much more quickly on average than the previous versions. We have been shipping the new products for several weeks, but some of our dealers may still have the previous version on the shelf for awhile. With the new formulas you will normally get the full results in a couple of minutes, but there can be a myriad of reasons for exceptions to that rule. However, recleaning of a record that is a particularly tough case will normally yield faster and better results.

I'm always available and happy to answer questions by phone or email.

Happy listening.

Jim Pendleton
Osage Audio Products, LLC