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Let's mod a PL-41 !

Naptown Rob said:
Both the PA-1000 & the MMT are looking interesting to me. Discuss amongst yourselves.

The donor of The Patient is back home, so surgery now awaits...
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Beats me, but from what I can glean from the Interweb, the two Sumiko models and the Pioneer are all very nice arms - at least of the quality that you've been looking at on eBay.

I would have to think that the Pioneer might be better suited for high-compliance cartridges (for better or worse) with its graphite arm. Accordingly, it would be a good match to the V15III you have, but maybe not for a Denon moving coil down the road if that's the direction you chose to take. The Sumikos may provide more compliance matching flexibility (just a WAG).

I'd have to reluctantly say (as a stock PL-41 owner) that all three arms would be better than the stock PL-41 and all have very close to, if not the exactly correct mounting distances. One consideration, if cost savings are of interest, is the size of the required mounting hole.

Rob - Measure your mounting hole diameter and if it jives with any of these 3 arms, you'd be saving whatever a machine shop would charge to enlarge the whole.

Also, do all of these have VTA adjustment. That too would be a deciding factor as the PL-41 platter is pretty low.
 
Mark Walters said:
I am patiently waiting for your masterpiece. What do you think about this PL-41 business? I do have an adapter for my Thorens that will allow use of a Rega arm-straight bolt in. Maybe it would be adaptable to my Pioneer. When I get home I will take some pics of it and post.
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Machining aluminum is sadly beyond my realm- no tools or access to tools to do it, at least access to tools I can use from my "situation".

But if it were my project, I'd be all over building a new arm board out of carbon fibre. A nice 3" or 4" by 4" plate.

I'd consider even going 1/4" inch plate and making it extra beefy, but I'm sure the 1/8" will be far more than adequate.

Tap it for four gold anodized allen head bolts, and then you could run any arm you want on it.

Cut a few extra carbon fibre plates and the flexibility would be fantastic- you could run all types of arms- including re-mounting the stock one, but also SME 3009s, Infinity Black Widows, Jelcos, Regas, etc....
 
finnbow said:
...Also, do all of these have VTA adjustment. That too would be a deciding factor as the PL-41 platter is pretty low.
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The Pioneer and Sumikos use a grub screw to set height adjustment.

The Sumikos use optional fluid damping- so a wider range of carts can be used.
 
Good points, finnbow.

I don't feel like disassembling my stock pl-41, so I'll wait for the donor to arrive in-house for the measurements - or - I'll ask you guys:

Anybody know how big the mounting hole is on a stock PL-41?

I'm not married to the Shure cart - it's just something decent I have on hand. I've had some good luck in the past with a couple of Denon & Stanton carts with the PL-41 arm, but who knows how they'll do with whatever the new arm is...
 
Paul - Do you think that such an armboard would raise some tonearms (e.g., Rega) too high for the relatively low platter on the PL-41?
 
finnbow said:
Paul - Do you think that such an armboard would raise some tonearms (e.g., Rega) too high for the relatively low platter on the PL-41?
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I dunno- I guess measurements are in order here.

However, as I've seen on some Technics mods, the armboards sometimes feature a countersunk plate to drop the arm down a bit- see some of the Jelco adaptor plates for the Technics SL-1200 MK2 to see what I mean.

For the Rega, as forward and excellent a base design it is, I feel if it's the RB250/300, it needs to have a few things addressed- lack of easy VTA adjustment and replacement of end arm weight stub and wiring.

These mods add $150 for the Pete Riggles basic VTA, $215 for the Origin Live or Mitchell Technoweight, and $110 and up for a re-wire, you're now at $475 in mods, and the cost of the arm, at $250-$300. That's $725-$775 total.

Something to consider. Though, you do end up with one heck of an arm.

The thing why I originally looked for, and snagged the Audioquest arm and the Sumiko arms are they are relatively cheaper- they sell for around $300 and up (although I got mine for a much better price)- and bit more when mated with the upgrade options offered.

They all include basic VTA adjustment in stock form, and fluid damping as an option.

And depending on who's opinions you subscribe to, you get 1) almost as good, 2) as good, or 3) better performance than the Regas, at about the same price, in stock form.

I do, however, feel the Rega, when modded with the $475 worth of mods, would get the performance nod as these start to bring the arm up to some serious big-buck competition.
 
I do, however, feel the Rega, when modded with the $475 worth of mods, would get the performance nod as these start to bring the arm up to some serious big-buck competition.
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It has long puzzled me why Rega doesn't offer these "upgrades" in their stock arms. As part of the original build, the VTA adjuster, counterweight and upgraded wires wouldn't cost much and could result in an arm that would be, far and away, the best bang out there for the buck.
 
Not to derail the thread, but could I trouble one of you fine folks to put the calipers on a 60 Hz pulley, please? I'm looking at having a 50 Hz machined down.

Thanks for the intro, finnbow.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
 
Guys
All this PL-41 talk has got me goin.. I had mine in storage (climate controlled of course) So I had to bring her home, I figured id give it a good listen. Im runnin the stock arm with a Sumiko Headshell + Shure M91ed checked alignment,overhang and tracking weight.
Gave her a spin, a little bass heavy not bad on up, very easy to listen to. Not dull just warm. Actually a pleasing sound. The table itself is dead quiet.
The stock arm dosen't sound to shabby to my ears. I can only wonder what this thing can do with a different arm. I may get adventurous and try my Denon 103, maybe a Grado Gold, but im thinking the Grado might warm it up even more..

bob
 
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MrIgotNomoney said:
Guys
All this PL-41 talk has got me goin.. I had mine in storage (climate controlled of course) So I had to bring her home, I figured id give it a good listen. Im runnin the stock arm with a Sumiko Headshell + Shure M91ed checked alignment,overhang and tracking weight.
Gave her a spin, a little bass heavy not bad on up, very easy to listen to. Not dull just warm. Actually a pleasing sound. The table itself is dead quiet.
The stock arm dosen't sound to shabby to my ears. I can only wonder what this thing can do with a different arm. I may get adventurous and try my Denon 103, maybe a Grado Gold, but im thinking the Grado might warm it up even more..

bob
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My experience with a Grado (a Green) on the stock arm wasn't completely satisfying. Actually, the sound was generally good, if a bit warm as well as tubby in the bass department. But tracking on records with a slight degree of edge warp was quite poor. In sounds very nice with a DL-160 though and tracks very well.

I think there are a few of us curious about hearing a review of the stock arm with a DL-103.
 
MrIgotNomoney said:
Guys
All this PL-41 talk has got me goin.. I had mine in storage (climate controlled of course) So I had to bring her home, I figured id give it a good listen. Im runnin the stock arm with a Sumiko Headshell + Shure M91ed checked alignment,overhang and tracking weight.
Gave her a spin, a little bass heavy not bad on up, very easy to listen to. Not dull just warm. Actually a pleasing sound. The table itself is dead quiet.
The stock arm dosen't sound to shabby to my ears. I can only wonder what this thing can do with a different arm. I may get adventurous and try my Denon 103, maybe a Grado Gold, but im thinking the Grado might warm it up even more..

bob
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Please try the Denon DL-103 and let me know what you get. Set TF at 2.5. The M91ED is a good match for low mass arms but not the greatest for the PL-41. The PL-41 likes 2.0 to 3.0 of TF.
 
Running a DL-103 on a PL-50 (which I believe is the same arm) and it is a match made in heaven. Very sweet and musical. Like others have said, the stock Pio arm is no slouch, especially with carts that track around 2 grams or more. Try an AT7V with that arm and you would be surprised at how sweet IT sounds. :yes:
 
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finnbow said:
It has long puzzled me why Rega doesn't offer these "upgrades" in their stock arms. As part of the original build, the VTA adjuster, counterweight and upgraded wires wouldn't cost much and could result in an arm that would be, far and away, the best bang out there for the buck.
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I am very fond of the Rega design, and respect Roy Gandy on many levels.

However, he does have some opinions I do not agree with.

He has stated in WhatHifi, if I recall the magazine correctly, he's opposed to aftermarket mods to both his tables and arms.

And he's also of the mind that there's no need to clean your records- that any dust or dirt will be pushed out/aside by the stylus.

I imagine Roy Gandy's records are most likely pristine and his house short on dust bunnies- but perhaps for the rest of us, it's important to get your records up to snuff with a good old washing.



Back to the matter at hand though- the Pioneer table.



Anyone care to add a few good photos of the table to this thread, especially where the arm mounts up?



It sounds like the arm is quality in it's own right (some claim the original arm was built for them by Jelco) but perhaps most of the gold is in the table/plinth/platter?

It's one beautiful table, I'll state that.
 
Mark
Will do, I tried the SME headshell in the Pioneer arm and it's just too tight, so Ill be swapping cart's. I have thought the same thing, the Denon would be a natural match for this arm, I have no idea what the arm's mass actually is, im assuming it's pretty high.
From my experience the Denon likes a higher mass arm, I had to use a headshell weight in my SME 3009 to get the Denon to open up. I think the weight is something like 8 grams. But after adding the weight in the SME + Denon combo that thing will track anything you simply cannot upset the arm. No issues whatsoever. I have the tracking weight set to 2.5 grams.
The Sumiko headshell is fairly heavy, that along with the arm mass and the weight of the Denon will add up to a good deal of mass.

bob
 
Best I could do tonight, as I have terrible lighting in the cave. This is a PL-41A.

pl41a-1.jpg


pl41a-2.jpg


Denon DL-103. The best cart you can stick on a PL-41, "hear me now und believe me later..." :thmbsp:
pl41a-3.jpg


pl41a-6.jpg


pl41a-5.jpg


Mine is connected to this beauty:
sc-100front.jpg
 
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The PL-41A arm is more sophisticated than the PL-41. Anti-skate and VTA on the fly. I wonder what the difference in sound equates to? Tromatic also rolls with a Denon DL-103, the cart that I have always thought would be a nice match.

Nice deck, Tromatic!
 
thedelihaus said:
I am very fond of the Rega design, and respect Roy Gandy on many levels.

However, he does have some opinions I do not agree with.

He has stated in WhatHifi, if I recall the magazine correctly, he's opposed to aftermarket mods to both his tables and arms.

And he's also of the mind that there's no need to clean your records- that any dust or dirt will be pushed out/aside by the stylus.

I imagine Roy Gandy's records are most likely pristine and his house short on dust bunnies- but perhaps for the rest of us, it's important to get your records up to snuff with a good old washing.



Back to the matter at hand though- the Pioneer table.



Anyone care to add a few good photos of the table to this thread, especially where the arm mounts up?



It sounds like the arm is quality in it's own right (some claim the original arm was built for them by Jelco) but perhaps most of the gold is in the table/plinth/platter?

It's one beautiful table, I'll state that.
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Besides just plain nice looks, the strength of the table is the 4-pole hysteresis synchronous motor (rock solid) and the one piece 2.2kg, aluminium alloy diecast platter. The plinth is real wood (ply with veneer) and heavy. All of the parts are solid; steel, aluminum, no plastic crap. Although I have never heard an Empire, I have been told the sound from these decks are similar to the Empire decks.
 
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