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Mains cables...

E-Stat said:
Actually, what you find in their manuals is avoiding conditioners, not necessarily low gauge power cords with filter networks. Plug them directly into the outlet. I agree and use conditioners for sources only. Preamp goes straight to wall with 12 gauge double shielded Belden sourced cord.
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What about the hundreds of feet of Romex and other wires feeding this outlet? Isn't it likely that noise will be picked up there as the wires pass air conditioner power lines, blowers, fluorescent lights, refrigerators, and any other noise-producing devices found in the average home? I'm not sure how that double-shielded power cord, which bypasses the filters in conditioners that the sources benefit from, is really relevant. Of course, if you've got all sorts of nasty RFI/EMI generating devices between the amp and power cord, it might help.
 
David_NC said:
Of course, if you've got all sorts of nasty RFI/EMI generating devices between the amp and power cord, it might help.
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That may well be a common problem these days, with physically-proximate computers, tablets, phones, and other computational -- and therefore potentially RFI/EMI generating -- devices being used as audio sources and accessories (like network routers).
 
David_NC said:
What about the hundreds of feet of Romex and other wires feeding this outlet? Isn't it likely that noise will be picked up there as the wires pass air conditioner power lines, blowers, fluorescent lights, refrigerators, and any other noise-producing devices found in the average home? I'm not sure how that double-shielded power cord, which bypasses the filters in conditioners that the sources benefit from, is really relevant. Of course, if you've got all sorts of nasty RFI/EMI generating devices between the amp and power cord, it might help.
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I work with signal lines in shipboard engine rooms daily. Lots of rotating machinery, high RFI/EMI/"Noise" environment. Not Apples to Apples but close enough. Shielded cables are a must in that environment. The shields "pick-up" all the interference before it gets to the conductors and "shunts" it to ground so it does not reach the equipment interior.

:beerchug:
 
GChief said:
I work with signal lines in shipboard engine rooms daily. Lots of rotating machinery, high RFI/EMI/"Noise" environment. Not Apples to Apples but close enough. Shielded cables are a must in that environment. The shields "pick-up" all the interference before it gets to the conductors and "shunts" it to ground so it does not reach the equipment interior.
:beerchug:
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Out of curiousity, are these cables shielded to the power source or just from a junction box to a device (machinery)? Ideally, I'd think one would have shielded Romex or similar on runs to outlets used for audio equipment. BX cables, other armored wire, or wiring run in metallic conduit should help here, I'd think. I'll have to research this a bit more.

4-2-7 said:
Actually in a system shielding is important for all your cables, it is in fact how noise can get into the system. I don't expect someone with a receiver, one turntable, and a CDP with a pair of speakers to need anything special. However in my system with separates, many front end components and power amps I can use all the protection I can get with cables crossing each other.

And as I said, I had a problem with some AC power cords when slipping in new to me power amps. They where mono blocks that i ran the power over other cables to test in my system. hummmmmm, swapped the amps leaving the cords, hummmmm stayed on the same side. Started to mess with the speaker cables on that side, that wasn't it. The next morning I stared to unplug stuff to do a better install, thats when I found the power cords where not the same. I replaced it with what looked to be better and no hum. It's no secret to keep power cables away from everything else or even the the preamp, thats why they make multi box preamps. Dirty box clean box, the dirty box has your AC and switches and is the controller for the clean box that has all the preamp in/outputs.
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Basically, if I understand correctly, you had noise (hum) issues in your amps that were created by your audio system (not a criticism, just wondering). I'm curious as to why the amps' power supplies weren't filtering this out. I take it the 'noisy power cables' were still of good quality. I wonder if there was a problem with the ground or something.
It reminds me of issues I had with some Cat5e cables I was using on HDMI extenders years ago. All was good until the freezer, washing machine, or HVAC system switched on. All sorts of problems popped up then, eventually leading to a loss of signal or handshake issues. Moving the Cat5e away from the power lines stopped the interference, but that meant I had to lay them on the ground of the crawlspace - not a good thing. Switching to Cat6 resolved all these issues.

What I'm getting from all these posts is that audio systems can cause enough interference to be clearly audible. In such cases, higher quality shielded power cables can help. Following best practices by ensuring cables of different types (AC, speaker, line-level, etc) are not run parallel to each other and being mindful of their spacing, along with good quality cables, can also solve and prevent such issues. For systems that don't have these issues, such measures are likely to not be audible, assuming the cables are of good quality (in terms of gauge), plugs and receptacles fit tightly, and low level cables and connectors are properly shielded and fit tightly.
 
David_NC said:
Out of curiousity, are these cables shielded to the power source or just from a junction box to a device (machinery)?
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In my case yes, but I work on the power source and its controls. GTG's (gas turbine generators). Even if its just JB to equipment it is still doing its job shunting interference. And only one side of a shield needs to be hooked up/grounded.

Actually getting on a plane to Spain Saturday to work on some generators :rockon:
 
David_NC said:
What about the hundreds of feet of Romex and other wires feeding this outlet?
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Passive shielding is designed to address local and airborne sources of RFI, e.g. nearby digital gear and WiFi/Cellular traffic. In the main system, I address your "shared noise" concern using twin dedicated 20A lines from the upstairs electrical panel. Comparatively short 12 gauge lines not shared with anything else. I also isolate known villains such as cable modems, routers, computers, cable boxes, etc. using conditioners or linear power supplies with them to prevent them from contaminating the AC. You'll never find me running Ethernet over power!

Using dedicated lines is always my first step and have enjoyed using them in my current and previous home spanning 23 years.
 
I was kinda shocked to see bragging British superiority in a thread like this. Some great music, inventions and other achievements have come from those foggy islands indeed. But when you have such great achievements, they speak for themselves, you don't have to be a pompous prick and brag on it so explicitly. Have class, for Pete's sake!

As far as power cables go, I have participated in a loaner program for a rather expensive power cable and I gave it a shot. It'd cost me nothing, so I thought I'd try it, just for the hell of it. I was the biggest sceptic before regarding power conditioners and power cables, but in my system it did a rather substantial difference, no two ways about it. There are more charlatans out there than honest vendors, I reckon, but good engineering in power cables make a difference, indeed. Call me a convert. In fact, I find it embarrassing how blind I was dismissing after-market power cords before. I think it was easy and convenient to do so and save $.

This whole journey taught me to keep an open mind and give it an honest try in my own system before criticizing it, whatever it might be.
 
peti said:
I was kinda shocked to see bragging British superiority in a thread like this. Some great music, inventions and other achievements have come from those foggy islands indeed. But when you have such great achievements, they speak for themselves, you don't have to be a pompous prick and brag on it so explicitly. Have class, for Pete's sake!
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You haven't been here long I noticed from your profile ;)

:beerchug:
 
peti said:
I was kinda shocked to see bragging British superiority in a thread like this. Some great music, inventions and other achievements have come from those foggy islands indeed. But when you have such great achievements, they speak for themselves, you don't have to be a pompous prick and brag on it so explicitly. Have class, for Pete's sake!
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a) All done in jest; and

b) We're so used to a constant barrage of claimed American superiority that it's fun to chuck it back over the fence now and then. ;)
 
peti said:
As far as power cables go, I have participated in a loaner program for a rather expensive power cable and I gave it a shot. It'd cost me nothing, so I thought I'd try it, just for the hell of it. I was the biggest sceptic before regarding power conditioners and power cables, but in my system it did a rather substantial difference, no two ways about it. There are more charlatans out there than honest vendors, I reckon, but good engineering in power cables make a difference, indeed. Call me a convert. In fact, I find it embarrassing how blind I was dismissing after-market power cords before. I think it was easy and convenient to do so and save $.

This whole journey taught me to keep an open mind and give it an honest try in my own system before criticizing it, whatever it might be.
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I'd agree, within reason. It's like miracle magnets that go on fuel lines and increase gas mileage by 25%+, those diets that let me eat as much of whatever I want and still lose weight (and remain healthy?), and that investment scheme where I could have made a simple $500 investment when I was 25 and retired by 30. Physics is physics, and that's not really changing. What does change is how things are implemented and how well they are implemented. Maybe I need to move that magnet closer to the fuel pump... ;)
In the case of power cables, I'd be curious as to what technology or implementation is being employed to yield results. Again, if it's simply better plugs, contacts, wire (strands, capacity, and purity), and possibly a shield, I can't imagine what else could give an improvement. I am open to learning about these things, but I am aware of marketing, markup, etc. Barring reduced interference / noise and possibly increased capacity, what were these improvements? Inquiring minds, and all that.
 
E-Stat said:
The benefits to using high quality power cords are NOTHING like *miracle magnets*.
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Hmmm.., Is it closer to the diet or investment I mentioned? :rflmao:

I was referring to the claims some make about such cables, not about the results of using a hiqh quality power cable.
 
David_NC said:
Physics is physics, and that's not really changing. What does change is how things are implemented and how well they are implemented.
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This, if we can remember to keep an open mind, would cover just about every contentious subject that crops up on the board here. If a change in a component makes for an improvement in your audio experience it is time to look into why. Engineering ... not magic or snake oil.

Mark Gosdin
 
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