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More Fun With Magnavox: The 9300 Series

Kid -- During the workup on the phase inverter section I tried it both ways with the 100 pf caps. Ultimately, that portion of the circuit changed as well from the stock design, so that the question of their inclusion becomes a moot point.

Gadget -- With the conversion to fixed bias operation, the process of determining the optimum quiescent bias point can be done one of two ways: You can certainly go to the family of plate curves, draw the load line based on fixed bias operating conditions, and then determine the optimum quiescent operating point from that, or simply adjust the bias while watching a THD meter at a level near but safely below clipping. With the bias adjusted for a null in distortion, the resulting quiescent bias can then be checked. I use the former method to establish a basic range for the bias control, and then the latter (while testing a number of tubes) to zero in on a typical optimum. Once that is determined, the EFB circuits will then automatically work to maintain that relative operating point, for whatever B+ level the power supply has to offer at any given time.

I hope that helps!

Dave
 
Ferninando -- Yes, only one EFB circuit is required to control both channels. It does therefore require using a matched quad of output tubes, which I have always championed anyway. It's always been amazing to me to watch folks work tirelessly to use passive parts that are inter-channel match to .0000000001%, but then want to use unmatched tubes. Using matched tubes is just as important as using matched passive components. The use of one EFB circuit forces that issue, although even at that, there is a way for the single circuit to control both channels independently, or even all four tubes independently -- but for the reason above, I don't recommend it. The schematic will be offered with the next section posting.

Dave
 
So basically install it, tweak it for a dip in THD at just below max power and leave it there? Cool. I was wondering if it was that simple, or if it involved some excessively complex testing process or whatever else. I think next-up on the bench will be a revisit of my own 9300 with the different output transformers. I've had the parts to EFB it for far too long now.
 
Sorry, I'm a novice with tubes. Is this simple adjustment for for THD something I can do with a DMM? I don't have a THD meter.
 
Sorry, I'm a novice with tubes. Is this simple adjustment for for THD something I can do with a DMM? I don't have a THD meter.
U need a THD meter that puts out a very pure sinewave with zero distortion and compares it with the amp output to give %of THD in the output
 
yup yup. Some pieces of gear have both the audio generator and the THD analyzer in one box, sometimes you need 2 pieces of gear to make a working set, one THD analyzer and one audio generator.

The handy thing about this, if you're working on something that the parameters have already been established on, you can simply duplicate the settings and expect that it will work pretty good. You need the test equipment when working on things that have not previously been documented for proper settings.
 
...or simply adjust the bias while watching a THD meter at a level near but safely below clipping. With the bias adjusted for a null in distortion, the resulting quiescent bias can then be checked. I use the former method to establish a basic range for the bias control, and then the latter (while testing a number of tubes) to zero in on a typical optimum. Once that is determined, the EFB circuits will then automatically work to maintain that relative operating point, for whatever B+ level the power supply has to offer at any given time.

Dave, a related question. In an EFB controlled output stage, how do you determine the optimal relationship between quiescent plate voltage and screen voltage? For example, I note on your Fisher 400 conversion (which I am copying in the amp I'm building now), you set the screen voltage at 123V below the plate. Why 123V lower? And how did you determine that was the optimal value? Or in your Bogen MO-200 conversion you set it at something like 370V lower than the plate.
 
It looks like I won't be able to install the EFB circuit in my 9302 because I don't have the test gear to adjust it.
 
It looks like I won't be able to install the EFB circuit in my 9302 because I don't have the test gear to adjust it.


If you duplicate Dave's settings once they are posted, it should work out fine. The test gear is needed to determine those settings, once that is done all you need is a regular multimeter to set yours to the same value.
 
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Kevin -- Setting the screen voltage with EFB has nothing to do with EFB itself, but everything to do with the relationship between the screen voltage, the reflected load, and the plate voltage. It is the screen grid voltage that determines how much maximum plate current a tube can draw, and of course, that varies from tube type to tube type. That's why you use a family of plate curves. Specifically to this discussion, and for the type of amplifier at hand (push-pull, fixed bias), you determine what screen voltage you want to use, determine the maximum plate current that can be drawn at the "knee" of the curve representing that screen voltage, draw the load line from that point down to the plate voltage axis, and then determined the resistance of that load line. Once the optimum load, and screen and plate voltage are determined for a given scenario, EFB then simply maintains that relative relationship as the main B+ supply changes.

In the case of the 400, Fisher inexplicably raised the OPT primary impedance from 6.5K in the early models to over 10K in later models -- without making the other necessary changes to accommodate the change in load. I simply used the occasion of installing EFB to correct the screen voltage in my latter model unit for that plate voltage/load impedance combination.

Morrism -- You will absolutely be able to adjust the EFB modification with nothing but your dvm. That's because I have done the work of determining what the optimum quiescent bias current is. You will then only need to adjust the bias current in your amplifier to that level.

I hope this helps!

Dave
 
It changes it significantly. I'll be finishing out that discussion first before moving on to the phase inverter, etc.

Dave
 
Dave- I'm curious, at how the lower static bias has affected the LF performance of the amp. Was there a relative gain in the output at low frequency, relative to that at mid-band, near full power? I would suspect there would be at least some decrease in saturation-based distortion at low frequencies- and even more of that to be had later, when the phase inverter is made more even (removing the imbalance in the inverter)...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Gordon -- I'd have to reconstruct one channel to check that, but I suspect not because of the extreme LF roll off used in the interstage coupling network between the first AF amplifier stage, and the top output tube. Of course, that also rolls off any NFB at the lower frequencies as well, so it may all just be a wash. If there was any decrease in saturation, it was so lost in all the crossover distortion that it wasn't noticeable.

Dave
 
Does the DUT have the .0015uf coupling cap, or the .0047uf? Even the .0047uf, with a 470K resistor across it, has a turnover frequency of 72 Hz. The .0015 is over 200 Hz!

I tended to change those out for .01uf on top, and .1uf on the bottom. That gets "full feedback" into the 30s (turnover at 36 Hz). Probably about all the OPTs could do. Of course. .015uf /.15uf would be 24 Hz or so, assuming we keep the same 470K grid grounding resistors on the output tubes...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Mine was a worst case Gordon -- .0015 uF for the top cap. I've seen PA amplifiers with networks using a lower turnover frequency!

Dave
 
Makes for a very effective rumble filter if nothing else, 7db down by 20 hz. Subsonic definitely not a factor here.

Wonder if the peak in the upper part is partly to compensate for the "meh" HF response on those horns. They're pretty good in the midband but once you get way high they don't really cut it.
 
Those horns do kind of drop like a rock, above about 12KHz or so. They definitely can benefit from a supertweeter. In my "HATU" speaker design (and subsequent revisions), I used these horns with a piezo tweeter, wired with a resistor and cap, to only produce about 13KHz and up, and wired the piezo in parallel with the horn. Makes a big difference.

I wouldn't be sure that they originally DESIGNED the amp that way- but I can see someone at Magnavox recognizing a "happy accident" that the HF peak ameliorated the rolloff of the horns a bit- and left it that way, to take advantage of the situation...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
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SIDE BAR

I was going to discuss this at the end of the project, but now seems to be as good a time as any: Performance of the stock design using an 8 ohm load. In the post containing the base line test results, I provided power output levels for both 4 and 8 ohm loading conditions. Frankly, if you go back and look, there isn't a whole lot of difference in actual power between the two. In fact, at the power bandwidth extremes of 40 Hz and 10 kHz, power output at 8 ohms actually ticks upwards slightly which would be expected in this scenario, since there are less transformer losses at these frequencies when using an 8 ohm load, versus using a 4 ohm.

The relatively unchanged power output level between the two load scenarios stands in stark difference with what happened when base line testing a stock 8600 chassis with an 8 ohm load in the project with that amplifier. Both amplifiers are rated for a 4 ohm output, but unlike with the 9300 project here, when the 8600 amplifier was loaded with 8 ohms, power output was basically cut in half. Both designs in stock mode are grossly over biased, which is a significant cause of the performance issues noted in both designs. But there are other differences to consider.

In a properly designed single ended (SE) amplifier, the quiescent operating point is placed smack dab in the middle of the load line to produce Class A operation, this then allowing for an equal excursion either way from that point, generating maximum power, and minimum distortion from the stage. With the stock 8600 design so over biased however (operating point set too low on the load line), the output waveform was already showing early clipping on negative going grid excursions with a 4 ohm load, so the low side of the load line defined the maximum possible plate voltage swing that could be achieved on either side of the operating point, before clipping commenced. This is the point at which maximum undistorted power output was measured and offered as a base line specification for the stock design when operating into a 4 ohm load. You can see then that with the maximum plate voltage swing already achieved using a 4 ohm load, then substituting an 8 ohm load generated no more voltage swing. The 8 ohm load just cut the current flowing in the load in half, cutting the power output in half with it.

With the 9300 however, it is a different story. As a push-pull Class AB1 design, the operating point for each tube is intentionally set very low on the load line, so that it doesn't take much negative grid swing to cut off either tube. But that's OK as in this design (theoretically), when one tube has reached cut off, the other tube is pulling hard and strong, with plenty of excursion left on its load line, so the combined output from both tubes at the secondary of the OPT shows a complete, undistorted waveform, of more power output than the SE Class A stage can generate in the 8600. Except that using cathode bias in the 9300 design really compromises its performance capabilities.

Based on the plate-to-plate load offered by the OPTs in the 9300 (7600 ohms), the use of cathode bias would require operating the tubes very hot under quiescent condition to allow them to pull enough current at maximum power output to deliver low distortion in the process. Remember that with cathode bias, the bias applied to the stage is a product of current flowing through it. Therefore, as power output increases, so does the bias. The use of a common cathode connection and cathode bypass capacitor will act to smooth much of bias variations out. But since this is a Class AB amplifier, there will still be an increase in average current draw by the stage as power output is increased throughout the Class B portion of the operating cycle. Therefore, there will be a corresponding increase in the bias voltage applied to the stage as well. As a result, the quiescent bias must be set quite hot so that as increasing power output acts to increase bias voltage, it doesn't end up over-bias the stage to the point of causing distortion as full power is approached.

Now the normal way of dealing with these cathode bias concerns is to use a higher plate-to-plate load impedance as mentioned in a previous post -- this to limit the peak current draw and therefore minimize changes in bias -- and accept lower power output as a result, but still achieve it with acceptably low distortion. Except that's not what Magnavox did. They chose to use a load impedance appropriate for fixed bias operation (to maximize power output), but use cathode bias instead for matters of economy, and strap the cathode circuits of both channels together to help minimize the bias shifts that exist under dynamic conditions. Then, they biased the tubes much cooler than would normally be required for the load impedance used (to enhance tube life), and counted on a low average power output requirement so that all the distortion this approach produced would never be produced.

Based on the number of units sold, it was clearly a strategy that worked, as you can find these things seemingly under every rock. However, the approach also helped to (in part) give birth to a whole class of economy consoles defined by the sound they produced. This is not meant to criticize that sound, but simply to say that when such a design is laid out bare for what it is today, the many warts that make it up then become quickly evident. However........

If you've followed along this far, then you realize that the central points of the discussion center on the fact that based on the load impedance offered by the OPT used, the bias system used was inappropriate. That for cathode bias to work acceptably in Class AB designs, the load impedance must be elevated over that used for fixed bias operation to prevent distortion. Which brings us to operating the stock design into an 8 ohm load, which of course then raises the load impedance offered to the tubes. With this loading scenario, power output drops slightly, but not that much. Why? Because with a 4 ohm load, the peak output tube current developed causes enough bias shift to prevent the tubes from even being able to reach the full excursion of their normally available load line. One the other hand, with an 8 ohm load, peak currents are reduced, bias shifts are minimized, and the tubes can then make full use of the altered load line. As a result, power output is maintained, and the crossover distortion is completely eliminated. In effect then, operating the bone stock amplifier into an 8 ohm load become an effective corrective measure for an otherwise compromised design. Realize however that in utilizing this "fix", the down side is lost power output -- as is the normal outcome when cathode bias is used.

When operated into 8 ohms, the stock amplifier should be considered as a 9 watt RMS per channel amplifier, with both channels driven. If the amplifier is modified to include EFB, power output will increase slightly to 11.0 watts per channel into 8 ohms, but while the crossover distortion is gone with both of these scenarios, general THD still rises due to the less than ideal loading conditions this creates. It's a darn side better in the stock design than when using a 4 ohm load, but the lowest overall distortion performance will still be had (by a considerable margin) when the amplifier is properly loaded with a 4 ohm load, and EFB is used to bias the output stage. Under those conditions, the full 15.5 watts will be available per channel with both channels driven with mid-band THD well under 1%. Finally, it should be noted that EFB will still allow for the lowest quiescent current to be used regardless of whether a 4 or 8 ohm load is used with the stock OPT.

This then gives owners an option: Consider the stock amplifier as an 8 ohm 9 watt per channel amplifier -- greatly improved over the 4 ohm (10 watt) performance it was designed to deliver -- OR -- add EFB for the lowest possible distortion and quiescent current requirement for either 4 or 8 ohm operation, with the best overall performance had with that combination operating into a 4 ohm load. While the current effort is to make the most of what this unit is for what it is, it also just screams out for a better OPT (for many reasons) that would at least be tapped for 4 and 8 ohm operation. But that will be reserved for a future effort. For now, the next episode will tackle the phase inverter circuits.

Dave
 
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Just curious, what's difference in the THD at 1 Watt for the above two scenarios - 8Ω load without EFB (stock), and 4Ω load with EFB?
 
When I get a chance, I'll reconvert one of the channels back to stock (200 ohm cathode resistor and bypass cap) to make the comparison. At 1 watt, it won't make any difference whether all four cathodes are tied together or not, so the doubled value will still make for an accurate representation.

Dave
 
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