Nelson Pass F5 build, Part Trois...

[westend]

Well guys, I think he gets it. Well done Lance, we'll see you on the forums in a month or so when you are done with your first listening session.

btw, I have a T1 through my C-2x, and it is a very nice tuna. It does KBEM justice.

I do sse the light, Master! :yes:
(Effusive thanks post will follow at the end of the build, lol)

I was about to edit the above post but I'l add it in here: Another heart-stopper, tonight and it is all about best practices vs. none.
I needed to make up some interconnects since the last incarnation of my main system was all ended in balanced cable and other interconnects have been parcelled out to different systems. Plus, I had wire, I had connectors, and I am totally compulsive.
After making up a couple of pairs I installed them into the gear, the first, Vampirewire twist-ons, the second Audioquest (some type of snake).
When I first fired everything up I didn't have any sound out of the right channel. I reached around to the back of the preamp to see if one had loosened and got a few bursts of sound. Oh no, I thought, something is terribly wrong with the amp or preamp. To see if the preamp connectors were loose, I pulled a little on the Audioquest connected wire and it came off in my hand.
Now I remembered that I had tested the first pair for continuity but, in my rush, had not tested the second pair. I looked at the connector and there was no solder on the positive terminal. Either I forgot to solder this one end or the base metal shed the solder. I'm thinking the latter. I've attached a couple of pics of the connectors and my advise is: test your work to prevent early coronary attack and don't buy Audioquest, get the Vampirewire.

I also took a couple of bad pics of the "Plant Hangers", the Fostex horns, since some folks might be at a loss as to what they are. Sorry about the mess in the shop-o- grunge, it's been a busy couple of weeks and the cleaning guy hasn't shown up.

 

[westend]

I know a guy who has a one man machine shop in his garage. He does small volume jobs for local commercial clients in the Twin Cities. You'll have to contact him to find out if he could help you out with your faceplate.

Here's a link to his website:

http://www.tedmachine.com/index.html

Hey Peter,
Thanks for that link. I'm going to give him a call.

 

[Russellc]

Jeff, I'm definitely thinking about the etching, machining, laser of an "F5" into the faceplate. It my hunt bears fruit, I'll let you know and we can double up. I haven't had time to hook it up, lol, been too busy metal working:scratch2:.

Old Fragger kinda' reminded me I should get busy on the faceplate so I'll show how far I got tonight. I could probably have had it to a mirror finish except for lack of sandpaper. I bossed the mounting bolt holes, chamfered all the holes on the drill press, and cut the edge chamfer on the router table. The handles will be cut down to match the faceplate height. I had to include a pic of the router table (I'm just really pleased how that turned out). It has saved a lot of time around here.:yes:

I promise I'll set up the F5, tomorrow, and report back what my impressions are *practices glowing adjectives in sleep*:thmbsp:.

Holy crap! You should do a thread on that router table project! Outstanding, and just what I need!

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Looks like a great deal, the trannys are nice.

Thanks, Denny, I will check on that.

That is a great deal if the sinks will handle the heat. A guy could always fabricate or buy a badder faceplate to pull it up a level.

Finally got some listening time and what others have said is absolutely right on, the F5 is outstanding. I am running some new-to-me gear on the front end so am trying to sort it all out but the Class A goodness is there!:thmbsp:

For starters: Preamp-Yamaha C-2a ( thank you, thank you, thank you, you special guy ) Tuner-Yamaha T-1, Tape deck-Nakamichi CR-3A, CD Player-Panasonic DVD recorder DMR ES-20, Speakers-DIY "Plant Hangers", a Fostex single driver back loaded horn.

I started out with the Tuner hooked up since I had never heard it and wanted to see what it could do. Tuned in the local Jazz station that was playing some acoustical guitar, mandolin, and lute, sat mesmerized for an hour or so. First impression was the clarity and realism, almost similar to a chip-amp but so much more musical.
Hooked up the Tape deck for the same reasons above, never heard it. Meh, tape. Probably a so-so mixdown but thank goodness I don't own many, this is mainly a carrot for the Polish Princess so she can enjoy, also.
I then went to the CD, started with Norah Jones. Man, the gal can sing and "Not Too Late" is well engineered.The vocals were always a treat through these speaks but the F5 turns up the quality and at the same time uncovers a small hump in the high-end that I had never noticed. The term, "in the room" is appropriate.
Next, spun up the Eagles-"Hell Freezes Over", a disc I am quite familiar with, using it to test out dynamics and range on every system I've had. There is absolutely nothing missing with the F5, absolutely nothing. Attack, transients, more bass, better treble, incredible, really. Without a doubt, this is the finest amp I've ever owned and the fact that I built it is only a small bit of icing on a very tasty cake.
Listening now to Miles davis-"Scetches of Spain", a Japanese MFSL disc and winding down a great night. There are those things that I might have heard but I haven't heard them like this.
A word about the test gear: The Panasonic DVD recoder is a 24 bit player but I'm sure it is holding a little back compared to a quality Redbook or SACD player. I didn't hook up a TT, although I have a couple, that is about the extent of my vinyl collection, a couple. The Fostex speakers are marvels in their own right but I can't wait to see what the F5 does on the Altec horns.

I will be finishing up the rest of the amp build and will post a BOM that will enable others to get in on this superb amp. Really, guys, you owe it to yourself to build one of these.

Which Nora Jones CD were you listening to, or is "not to late" the CD title?
I have one at home, I forget the title, but on one track there is some kind of blunder where something glass is whacked, and there is a crystal clear "click"....not part of the music, but demonstrates what you say about the engineering or her CDs.

I am also awaiting your report on Altec usage....

russellc

 

[Russellc]

I will be finishing up the rest of the amp build and will post a BOM that will enable others to get in on this superb amp. Really, guys, you owe it to yourself to build one of these.

I'm trying on my part, let's get this build to a fever pitch...boards are available, support, everybody jump in!

russellc

 

[edd9000]

I have seen some great stuff from http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/

Expensive though, $60-150 for a front or rear panel. You can supply your own materials too.

 

[qboneus]

Awesome!! congrats Lance!!!!
looks great!
cheers,
tal

 

[westend]

Holy crap! You should do a thread on that router table project! Outstanding, and just what I need!

Russellc

Just like everything else, there is a Forum for Router enthusiasts: http://www.routerforums.com/table-mounted-routing/ . My efforts pale to what some of the guys over there can do.

Which Nora Jones CD were you listening to, or is "not to late" the CD title?
I have one at home, I forget the title, but on one track there is some kind of blunder where something glass is whacked, and there is a crystal clear "click"....not part of the music, but demonstrates what you say about the engineering or her CDs.

I am also awaiting your report on Altec usage....

russellc

"Not Too Late" is the title of the Norah Jones CD, a two disc set.
Now that you mention uncut noises, I was listening to Miles Davis-"Sketches of Spain", a 32 bit recording that Deli ripped for me. On the first track I could actually hear sheet music unfolding and hitting the floor. I've listened to this same disc a lot of times and had never heard that before.

Awesome!! congrats Lance!!!!
looks great!
cheers,
tal

Thanks, buddy, I certainly couldn't have done it without you!

You and Jeff had great pics and documentation in your threads. I referred to them for locating components and wiring layouts many times.

The heatsinks stay warm but I can hold my arm on the top indefinitely. A welder wouldn't even notice the heat.

 

[Russellc]

"Not Too Late" is the title of the Norah Jones CD, a two disc set.
Now that you mention uncut noises, I was listening to Miles Davis-"Sketches of Spain", a 32 bit recording that Deli ripped for me. On the first track I could actually hear sheet music unfolding and hitting the floor. I've listened to this same disc a lot of times and had never heard that before.

I think there is a cut of that song on my copy of "Kind of Blue" ( both Sony bitmapping version on CD), as well as the Classic Recordings 200 gram reproduction. I'll have to listen real carefully, if I am correct about that cut being on KOB.

Russellc

 

[westend]

OK, here is the bill of materials for my F5 build.

I bought the Tech-DIY kits and there was some problem with the parts being of different values and some were missing. I will try not to duplicate those missing parts in this BOM.

Power entry model:http://search.digikey.com/scripts/D...go&lang=en&site=us&keywords=Q303-nd&x=25&y=15

Transformer:http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=75 John Angio was offering a $10 discount by using a coupon code from the F5 thread at diyAudio.

Rectifier bridges:http://search.digikey.com/scripts/D...&lang=en&site=us&keywords=gbpc3502-e4/51gi-nd

NTC Thermistors:http://search.digikey.com/scripts/D...=search_go&lang=en&site=us&keywords=kc006l-nd

Amp and PS board from Cviller group buy at DIYaudio. Nice boards and here is the guide: http://viller.org/audio/2009jan_gbf5/gbf5_guide.pdf It has pics and board layout with the original N Pass circuits. Ordering webpage:http://viller.eu/gb/

Power supply: 8 x http://search.digikey.com/scripts/D..._homepage_link=hp_go_button&KeyWords=p6668-nd
8 x http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P0.47W-3BK-ND
2 x http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P2.2W-3BK-ND

The Tech-diy kits will have some sort of .47 resistor, also, but I used the same Panasonic 3w resistors (above) for the amp boards.

Tech-diy kits:http://tech-diy.com/Store/CloneKits.htm The kits contain all the transistors and resistors for the F5 amp boards. Jack has been sending out a single 50 ohm resistor for the current limiting circuit but I populated the boards with 8 x http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P100W-3BK-ND

I purchased mica insulators, TO-247 from Digikey but the vortex of grunge sent them off to a parallel universe so I purchased these Bergquist Silpads for the Mosfets:http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=BER120-ND

I sourced a 4 place terminal strip at Ratshack for the NTC thermistors, covered with a piece of Craftsman display holder. Worked great. These are placed in series on the transformer primaries to limit in-rush current. RS also supplied fuses and LED's.

Wires: Power runs and speaker leads- 14ga. stranded from Home Depot (largest size that will fit the vias in the Cviller boards, I believe). Input signal-Shielded interconnect twisted pair 24 ga., I had on-hand.

A builder will need some wire management items like tie straps, etc. and some sort of standoffs. I sourced most of this from my local True Value and Home Depot. I used HDPE for the standoff bases. This I had on hand and was purchased at Rockler Woodworking.

Chassis jacks are Vampirewire, as are speaker teminals. I was fortunate to get them on Ebay at a low price.

The heatsinks are the M&M metal sinks:http://www.mmmetals.com/extrusions/drawings/MK62430.JPG

The Chassis: As was posted, the aluminum chassis, I built, using panels and angle from my local supplier. The Amerock faceplate handles are stainless steel, sold at Home Depot.

I hope I ddin't miss out on anything. If anyone building one of these fine amps has a question, feel free to ask. The fact that a Caveman like myself can put one of these together, sounding and looking fairly nice speaks volumes about the ease of construction. Go for it! :yes::thmbsp:

 

[specialidiot]

Good on ya for posting all of the links.

I had an incomplete BOM for the boards and ordered off of the schematic for the PS board. I probably paid as much for shipping as I did for the board components.

Any more comments on your listening sessions? I may have a couple other preamps for you to try out if you are interested.....

 

[westend]

Well, the incomplete and wrong value kits were definitely a PITA. I decided I wasn't going to wait on Jack and shipping times to stuff the boards so I just ordered the correctvalues and whatever else I needed from Digikey. By the time the Tech-DIY correct parts arrived, I had already received my Digikey order and had the boards stuffed. Ya' gotta' love Digikey being in-state. My shipments arrive within a couple of days.

Jeff, the C2a is such a step up from what I'm used to that I really have no comparison for preamps. Paired with the F5, it is close to what I am aiming for, a true reference system.
I need to get my Altec 19 VEOTC (Vertical Embellishment of Those Cabs) done. The birth of the F5 is enough reason to get them done. This amp deserves a good pair of speakers and I think the 802's will really shine with the F5.
If I can shorten the honey-do list, get the work pattern manageable, and reorganize the debris around here (look for our family on that reality show, "Hoarders"), I'll have time to get the main system pretty well sorted out.
I sure do appreciate the offer of preamp auditions, though. Let me sort out the main system over the next month and I'll probably take you up on that offer.

 

[specialidiot]

Jeff, the C2a is such a step up from what I'm used to that I really have no comparison for preamps. Paired with the F5, it is close to what I am aiming for, a true reference system.
I need to get my Altec 19 VEOTC (Vertical Embellishment of Those Cabs) done. The birth of the F5 is enough reason to get them done. This amp deserves a good pair of speakers and I think the 802's will really shine with the F5.

Understood completely Lance! I trust your ears.

As good as my C-2x is, it sure doesn't match up well with my MC225 - The Grounded Grid or my Foreplay III are both much much better.

I've only used my Cornwalls and my Indignias with my F5 - with Indignias getting most of the use in my office. The Diatones didn't quite upon up, but I would love to hear my Ohm Walsh 2's. hmm... I sure wish my weekend wasn't fully booked!

 

[westend]

Understood completely Lance! I trust your ears.

As good as my C-2x is, it sure doesn't match up well with my MC225 - The Grounded Grid or my Foreplay III are both much much better.

I've only used my Cornwalls and my Indignias with my F5 - with Indignias getting most of the use in my office. The Diatones didn't quite upon up, but I would love to hear my Ohm Walsh 2's. hmm... I sure wish my weekend wasn't fully booked!

As they say, it's all about synergy. Using the F5 on the Fostex BLH's is not a bad combination. These little drivers really shine with good gear and the Ron-horn is an amazing thing. If you're interested, you can mess with them for awhile. They see limited duty over here.

I know you have the 103's in cabs that Gary built and the 126e is more of the same. I heard those speakers in Gary's basement lab and was impressed by the soundstage. The BLH adds more bass. I wonder what the 103's would do in these cabs.

I'm about to climb under a couple of cars, today, so don't feel you're alone about having your weekend crippled. After the auto repair, I can walk right over to the storage shed and put the new floor in that.:sigh:

 

[Russellc]

Well, the incomplete and wrong value kits were definitely a PITA. I decided I wasn't going to wait on Jack and shipping times to stuff the boards so I just ordered the correctvalues and whatever else I needed from Digikey. By the time the Tech-DIY correct parts arrived, I had already received my Digikey order and had the boards stuffed. Ya' gotta' love Digikey being in-state. My shipments arrive within a couple of days.

Jeff, the C2a is such a step up from what I'm used to that I really have no comparison for preamps. Paired with the F5, it is close to what I am aiming for, a true reference system.
I need to get my Altec 19 VEOTC (Vertical Embellishment of Those Cabs) done. The birth of the F5 is enough reason to get them done. This amp deserves a good pair of speakers and I think the 802's will really shine with the F5.
If I can shorten the honey-do list, get the work pattern manageable, and reorganize the debris around here (look for our family on that reality show, "Hoarders"), I'll have time to get the main system pretty well sorted out.
I sure do appreciate the offer of preamp auditions, though. Let me sort out the main system over the next month and I'll probably take you up on that offer.

I'll have to say, things may have gotten more streamlined at DIY tech. All values were correct, 2 of the 4 pots were missing. As soon as I got the info to Tech-DIY, I had the pots in hand 2 days later. Digikey IS awful fast, that's for sure.

russellc

 

[westend]

I'll have to say, things may have gotten more streamlined at DIY tech. All values were correct, 2 of the 4 pots were missing. As soon as I got the info to Tech-DIY, I had the pots in hand 2 days later. Digikey IS awful fast, that's for sure.

russellc

That bodes well for Jack. I lay it off to a new guy (girl?) on the packaging line. All those Dale resistors look identical in case and lead length. I received 6 or 7 150 ohm resistors, no 2.2k resistors, missed the trimmers first time, also. Other values were missing but I've forgotten which ones. I emailed Jack and told him not to bother sending the others but he sent them anyway. If anything, I made out OK since I ended up with excess resistors.
He was suitably fast about the dicrepancy and I really didn't want to post about it because I think he brings a lot of help to the DIY community. I mention it as a PITA because it was like doing a jigsaw puzzle but the pieces were from a different puzzle. It has more to do with the ass it pained then the supplier.

Got in a little late night polishing on the faceplate. Let me tell ya'guys, this is getting a little old, the polishing. I have my technique down pretty good but I just got to the end of a second round of sanding and polishing because I had some deep mill marks that didn't come out in the process. Went all the way back to square one, observing the scratches disappear , polished it up and... just a few stubborn marks in the upper right corner.
Oh well, another round better get it or I am going to have a faceplate with a brushed finish. Got the LEDs operable, as well. Seems I had toasted them with the full current start-up so a new pair were installed. Just the finishing touches remain and the consolation is that this amp is still sounding superb.

 

[rtate]

Great job Lance!!!
I have 2 questions for you though...
Do you happen to have a part number for the LED's that you used and a value for the resistor R35?

Also in post #28 where you show the thermistor mounting, it appears that you have the thermistors on the Red wire for both primaries.
When I look at the diagram for the "FirstWatt" power supply I think that it shows one thermistor on the" line "side of one primary and the other thermistor on the "neutral".
So my question is does it matter?

 

[westend]

Great job Lance!!!
I have 2 questions for you though...
Do you happen to have a part number for the LED's that you used and a value for the resistor R35?

Also in post #28 where you show the thermistor mounting, it appears that you have the thermistors on the Red wire for both primaries.
When I look at the diagram for the "FirstWatt" power supply I think that it shows one thermistor on the" line "side of one primary and the other thermistor on the "neutral".
So my question is does it matter?

Thanks.
Answers: 1) Radio Shack Blue LED 5 volt 30ma 300mcd 430nm forward voltage 5.0v. #276-0311. The online calculators showed a resistor value of 850-1070 ohms with a supply voltage of 22 vdc, depending on current. I chose to run the leds a little cooler for longevity and less brightness. I used a 1/4w 2.2k Dale in location #35 on the Cviller board. I think the amount of luminesence turned out very well.
2) It makes little difference in how you locate the thermistors regarding the control of in-rush current. They would both be in the circuit and therefore limit the current at startup. It may be that NP placed them that way because his transformer has a single AC primary or to further reduce any AC noise that is on the neutral side of the AC. I placed both on the AC line side because it was easy for me to wire and terminate and I won't have to worry about any AC hash when I place a line conditioner forward of my gear. Also, since I used a terminal strip, if they didn't work out, it would be easy to remove them from the circuit. I used CL60 NTC thermistors.
FWIW, I had read a post regarding thermistors using 240v. and Nelson had cautioned the user about paralleling these devices. They will exhibit awkward results in parallel so should be installed in series with any circuit, he mentioned.

Hey, if you're starting your build of the F5, jump on in and start a build thread. Doesn't have to be documented with pics or descriptions (although that helps) but it may uncover the little details that future builders need. Jeff's and Tal's threads were indispensible to me when I was building.

 

[rtate]

Westend, Nelson's PS schematic shows 2 primary windings, however I do think you are right that it makes little difference with AC.
I was just checking :scratch2:

I am planning on starting a thread at some point.
I just wanted to get all the parts in order first :yes:

Thanks for the help.

 

[Russellc]

Westend, Nelson's PS schematic shows 2 primary windings, however I do think you are right that it makes little difference with AC.
I was just checking :scratch2:

I am planning on starting a thread at some point.
I just wanted to get all the parts in order first :yes:

Thanks for the help.

Yet another steps forward to build F-5!:thmbsp:

Russellc