"No Point" getting higher end MM if you can properly run MC as well

[Mister Pig]

My point is obvious. From the same thread at the other forum:

"The answer to the question is 'yes'...sometimes for the better, and sometimes otherwise. I once sent two MC cartridges to the same re-tipper for new cantilevers and styluses. One cart came back sounding better than new - actually as good as subsequent generations of the same cart - and the other cart came back sounding too 'polite', even with a boron cantilever, compared to other aluminum cantilever examples I had of the same cartridge."

"even with a boron cantilever, compared to other aluminum cantilever examples I had of the same cartridge."

If you change the cantilever from what was stock you will end up with a different sound. Whether it is an improvement or not cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy. This should not be a surprise. Not does it mean retipping is a waste of money, a person needs to understand the variables and make well reasoned decisions.

 

[kbwhaaland]

Lastly, the best part is the lowered tracking force and subsequent vinyl longevity

These days I have two cartridges for vinyl, one MM and one MC. They both track at 2 g and both use the original by manufacturer Namiki Microridge/MicroLine stylus shape which to my knowledge has the practically largest contact surface of available styluses today.
(The MM I have for shellac 78s tracks at 5 g.)

 

[cafe latte]

No retippers will tell you their own work is inferior.

Of course not. I was just saying a good retipper can make a cart better than new.

 

[cafe latte]

"even with a boron cantilever, compared to other aluminum cantilever examples I had of the same cartridge."

If you change the cantilever from what was stock you will end up with a different sound. Whether it is an improvement or not cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy. This should not be a surprise. Not does it mean retipping is a waste of money, a person needs to understand the variables and make well reasoned decisions.

It also depends how the cantilever is glued on.
Some retippers are using uv glue which is too soft and this would make a cart polite as the cantilever is not fix hard in position.
Done correctly this won't happen
Chris

 

[nailer]

Of course not. I was just saying a good retipper can make a cart better than new.

Sounds like marketing hyperbole.

 

[nailer]

"even with a boron cantilever, compared to other aluminum cantilever examples I had of the same cartridge."

If you change the cantilever from what was stock you will end up with a different sound. Whether it is an improvement or not cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy. This should not be a surprise. Not does it mean retipping is a waste of money, a person needs to understand the variables and make well reasoned decisions.

About how much accuracy can something like this be predicted?

 

[mkane]

^^^^^^^About the same % as the weather.

 

[Pio1980]

About how much accuracy can something like this be predicted?

"Sound" is subjective, measurement is objective. The two may or may not interrelate, but but measurement provides a solid basis for evaluation, whereas "sound" can benefit from euphonic anomalies.

 

[nailer]

"Sound" is subjective, measurement is objective. The two may or may not interrelate, but but measurement provides a solid basis for evaluation, whereas "sound" can benefit from euphonic anomalies.

One's imagination might be seen as a euphonic perception. Then again, maybe not. Milage varies,

 

[adnick]

what would you pit your 881s against in mc territory, and what stylus do you have, i have a 881s, but a aftermarket mr on it, it sounds good to a point, till it does not, my other hard to beat cart is a Shure v-15 type 4 with a boron cantilever and sas stylus "it recks the curve for us" and the sound of a Shure m91ed with boron sas beat my 881 s yesterday, hands down.
I'm only asking and showing where i see because ive never owned a mc b4, and have a denon 103, snapped cantilever on it, and have many other carts mostly mm, mi, including mp 200, Stanton 681 eee, with jico Shibata stylus "very clean but hazy"

The 881S is an original, so it’s an anomaly in today’s world, and it’s my top cartridge in my MI/MM family, followed by a Grado Sonata II low output, a Grace F8C, and a Shure V15III….Actually kinda avoid using the 881S because someday it will need maintenance

In my world, the 881S is a bit better than a Denon 103R, however change the stylus and then the 103R begins to compare, but music selection will have a lot to do with which I like best when….

I’m a big fan of the 103D, it’s one of my favorite everyday cartridges, and I’ll upgrade the stylus but not the aluminum cantilever, want it to sound like a 103D not something else

Have a 103M that needs retipped, so that might be my next favorite in the future

VR
Andy

 

[Sgt Shultz]

The 881S is an original, so it’s an anomaly in today’s world, and it’s my top cartridge in my MI/MM family, followed by a Grado Sonata II low output, a Grace F8C, and a Shure V15III….Actually kinda avoid using the 881S because someday it will need maintenance

In my world, the 881S is a bit better than a Denon 103R, however change the stylus and then the 103R begins to compare, but music selection will have a lot to do with which I like best when….

I’m a big fan of the 103D, it’s one of my favorite everyday cartridges, and I’ll upgrade the stylus but not the aluminum cantilever, want it to sound like a 103D not something else

Have a 103M that needs retipped, so that might be my next favorite in the future

VR
Andy

If you put the Grace on a Grace arm you might move it to the top of the list, the synergy of having a cartridge on the arm it was designed for cannot be denied, Grace G707 arm.

Grace F-8L10' Advanced Luminal Trace 10th anniversary cartridge purchased NOS






I've used the F-8C on this arm as well, both outstanding with different presentations. It's also quite nice on the Well Tempered Lab Turntable easily beating the SAE 1000MC so many of us purchased.

Grace F-8C Custom purchased NOS, also have a replacement NOS stylus in the wings when needed.




I'm currently running a couple of LOMC cartridges for a contest of $300 budget cartridges, the winner to be revealed soon. So the Grace F-8C is currently sitting the bench

Windbell MC100MKII


Denon DL-301MKII

 

[adnick]

If you put the Grace on a Grace arm you might move it to the top of the list, the synergy of having a cartridge on the arm it was designed for cannot be denied, Grace G707 arm.

Grace F-8L10' Advanced Luminal Trace 10th anniversary cartridge purchased NOS
View attachment 2848414

View attachment 2848415

View attachment 2848416

I've used the F-8C on this arm as well, both outstanding with different presentations. It's also quite nice on the Well Tempered Lab Turntable easily beating the SAE 1000MC so many of us purchased.

Grsce F-8C Custom purchased NOS, also have a replacement NOS stylus in the wings when needed.
View attachment 2848410

View attachment 2848411

I'm currently running a couple of LOMC cartridges for a contest of $300 budget cartridges, the winner to be revealed soon. So the Grace F-8C is currently sitting the bench

Windbell MC100MKII
View attachment 2848421

Denon DL-301MKII
View attachment 2848420

The F8C is on a Grace 707, but the 881S is on a Denon 401 and the Stanton clearly wins, but they are both excellent.

I’ve also got an SAE 1000E which I’d rate something close to the Shure V15III, the SAE would rate higher but on some albums it’s a bit harsh…

The Grado Sonata II low output is a surprise for me, I’d say it’s overall better than the SAE 1000E but I’d have to say it and the F8C change positions based on music selection…

All this is just my opinion
Andy

 

[Mister Pig]

This says a lot

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/finally-dove-into-the-mc-pool-wow.1026813/

 

[Sgt Shultz]

The F8C is on a Grace 707, but the 881S is on a Denon 401 and the Stanton clearly wins, but they are both excellent.

I’ve also got an SAE 1000E which I’d rate something close to the Shure V15III, the SAE would rate higher but on some albums it’s a bit harsh…

The Grado Sonata II low output is a surprise for me, I’d say it’s overall better than the SAE 1000E but I’d have to say it and the F8C change positions based on music selection…

All this is just my opinion
Andy

Did you run the Grado wood body on the Grace arm? I found them a very good match, right there with the Grace as you say. A bit closer to the F-8L10' sonic signature I found with the F-8C closer to a LOMC than other MM I've used.

I also have the E SAE, it was a bit fat sounding, a little reticent in the upper registers, soundstage smaller and more two dimensional than I expect, it was only $99, maybe the ML version is better

 

[CrSens]

This says a lot

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/finally-dove-into-the-mc-pool-wow.1026813/

It also says you do not need a fancy turntable for a $1000 cartridge. Plastic fantastic is apparently enough, one would think this would elicit a chorus of boos from the turntable gurus pushing the "end game" decks.

 

[Sgt Shultz]

It also says you do not need a fancy turntable for a $1000 cartridge. Plastic fantastic is apparently enough, one would think this would elicit a chorus of boos from the turntable gurus pushing the "end game" decks.

A high end table will get more out of a budget cartridge than a budget table will out of a high end cartridge.

 

[Morgan D]

The The Oc 9 xml is $600 + SUT

 

[ripblade]

I felt the same way when I changed phono stages. It's all interconnected.

Let's not forget that the OC9XML is in almost every way a better cartridge, not just because it's MC. A fairer comparo would be the 150MLX.

 

[Sgt Shultz]

I felt the same way when I changed phono stages. It's all interconnected.

Let's not forget that the OC9XML is in almost every way a better cartridge, not just because it's MC. A fairer comparo would be the 150MLX.

I have two new available LOMC in the same price range that are also sonically superior, currently running a budget LOMC shootout, results to be revealed soon.

 

[CrSens]

A high end table will get more out of a budget cartridge than a budget table will out of a high end cartridge.

But in the end budget table with high end cartridge will sound better than high end table with budget cartridge. That's the (for many) unpleasant truth.