Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
My thoughts is there is untapped potential there. Yes a higher performance table is going to reveal more. Yet what is being described is the inherent strengths of a moving coil cartridge that many appreciate.
"No Point" getting higher end MM if you can properly run MC as well
- Thread starter TunerLanding
- Start date
My thoughts is there is untapped potential there. Yes a higher performance table is going to reveal more. Yet what is being described is the inherent strengths of a moving coil cartridge that many appreciate.
Sgt Shultz
Addicted Member
It's just too bad you're wrong, the lesser table and arm will hobble the cartridge, the better table will elevate the lesser cartridge wringing everything it has out of it.
Most with budget tables feel as you do until they know better.
It's too bad because if it were true we could all run Crosleys with better carts and save a ton of money.
CrSens
Super Member
When I say budget turntable I do not mean Crosley.
Sgt Shultz
Addicted Member
So where exactly IS your tipping point then
You see I have several endgame decks for most and felt like you until I had an actual endgame deck.
The same cartridge on my Kenwood KD-500/Grace G707 arm, a Grace cartridge designed for the arm with a synergy that can't be denied sounds sooooo much better on my Well Tempered Lab Turntable it's laughable really.
The same can be said when comparing carts on my Kenwood KD-770D with the WTL, and by the way, these Kennys are not budget tables.
You see there's a point where stepping up in cartridges is just a waste if the table isn't up to the task as you yourself understand about the Crosley.
I wouldn't consider installing a $3500 cartridge on the Kennys but wouldn't hesitate to double that on the WTL, it just is what it is.
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CrSens
Super Member
Fluance, Project, Rega P1, any decent plastic DD or belt drive from major manufacturer from the golden era. Even AT120.So where exactly IS your tipping point then
BTW, did you ever try it, or you just know?
Sgt Shultz
Addicted Member
I've edited my last post to help explain.
As for do I know lol? I've been spinning records for more than 5 decades, I currently have 7 turntables, not all are or have been top flight decks.
My Mitsubishi DP-EC8 is most likely currently the lowest on the food chain, it's fine with up to a $200-$300 cartridge but any more than that and it's just a waste of money. And even at that installed on my Thorens TD-166MKII those same cartridges would shine so much more.
Moving up the table ladder the cartridges would reveal at each step they still had more to give, even a $100 Sumiko Black Pearl. I used a new one to test the WTL when it first arrived and was blown away by just how great that little budget cartridge can sound.
So when you're ready to take the plunge feel comforted that your top tier table will give you all you hoped for and more, and be ready for that better cartridge when you are.
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CrSens
Super Member
I don't deny better turntables can get more out of a cartridge, I am just saying that high end cartridge on a budget turntable can get you there sooner and easier than "end game" turntable with a budget cartridge.
Sgt Shultz
Addicted Member
Sorry you're wrong, I know you wish it were so but it's not. The budget table and arm will hobble the cartridge, any of those tables you mentioned wouldn't be a good recipient of a $1500+ cart, just a waste of good money, my Well Tempered Lab would sound better with a $100 cartridge.
You asked me for my real life experience, so have YOU ever had a high end table with a budget cartridge installed on it? And a budget table with a high end cartridge at the same time to make a comparison? Or do you "just know" eh?
Now, all that said you being budget minded your idea of a high end cartridge might be $100, many here even are satisfied with sub $50 carts with replaceable $20 stylus, $100 would be a huge step up in their mind, I don't play there.
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CrSens
Super Member
I did try it, $1800 deck with $200 cartridge against $100 vintage ebay deck with $800 MC cartridge. And I also run $3500 cartridge on a vintage $400 or so deck. But I will stop here before the debate becomes too acrimonious or unproductive. I stated my opinion (which apparently goes against the grain here) and I will leave it at that.
Usually I don't even try
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Usually I don't even try
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Sgt Shultz
Addicted Member
I did try it, $1800 deck with $200 cartridge against $100 vintage ebay deck with $800 MC cartridge. And I also run $3500 cartridge on a vintage $400 or so deck. But I will stop here before the debate becomes too acrimonious or unproductive. I stated my opinion (which apparently goes against the grain here) and I will leave it at that.
Usually I don't even try
An $1800 deck is not a high end table, just saying.
This is a $2700 used table and it's still not a high end deck, endgame for most yes, but high end? No. It's not a budget table either, but I certainly wouldn't waste a $3500 cartridge on it, $500 - $1000 tops.
Again, I know you wish it were so, and so do I, I could have saved some money, but it's just not factual. Installing a high end cartridge on a budget table is just bass ackwards and a big waste of money.
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cafe latte
Addicted Member
No, just saying factory thr tips are fitted very quickly and degree of error is high. Good retippers can spend hours getting the tip spot on which is simply not viable to do in mass production. The result is a good retipper can make a retipped cart better than new.Sounds like marketing hyperbole.
Chris
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Hopefully, no one desires to rain on someone's parade. Mr. Pig cited a thread in which someone was thrilled with the sound they got by installing an AT OC9XML and SUT on a Technics turntable (I couldn't find a BL-2 model, but possibly they meant an SL-B2) in place of their VM540ML. We should all be happy and excited for people who experience that kind of pleasure from a purchase.
I also appreciated Mr. Pig's comment concerning that post that "what is being described is the inherent strengths of a moving coil cartridge that many appreciate." I am not one of those that appreciates moving coil cartridges, but I always like to read about the sonic attributes that make a person happier with one piece of gear over another.
It would have been interesting to see which specific models you're referring to, but in any case there's no reason for debate or acrimony. We all hear what we hear and are free to enjoy what we prefer.I did try it, $1800 deck with $200 cartridge against $100 vintage ebay deck with $800 MC cartridge. And I also run $3500 cartridge on a vintage $400 or so deck. But I will stop here before the debate becomes too acrimonious or unproductive. I stated my opinion (which apparently goes against the grain here) and I will leave it at that.
Usually I don't even try
I was fortunate to have an extraordinarily cooperative dealer who took time to give me multiple audition sessions proving to my satisfaction that a Linn LP12 with Basik Plus arm and the free Basik cartridge (think AT95E but with a conical stylus) that came with it drew me into the music far better than any cartridge of any price that I asked him to install on my Thorens TD 146. He also proved to me that no cartridge at any price mounted to the Basik Plus arm could sound as good as that same Basik cartridge when mounted to the better Ittok LVII arm. It took me some time to put the money together, but eventually an LP12/Ittok combination was my main turntable for about 25 years.
Over the years I both auditioned and experimented with various cartridges (including buying just one moving coil, the Linn Asaka), but concluded that I got full satisfaction from the combination of a pretty good turntable (either the Linn or, later, a Well Tempered) with a modest cartridge. Favorite cartridges included the Stanton 681EEE Mk III, Grado Green1 (with AVA Longhorn modification on the Linn), and Shure M97xE. Circumstances I don't need to go into had me selling the Well Tempered and the Linn, emerging with a still highly satisfying Rega RP3 with the M97xE mounted up.
I can't imagine my ever spending hundreds, let alone thousands, of dollars for a cartridge or stylus replacement because I know that with the right turntable (and phono stage) even the $79 Sumiko Oyster, with $39 replacement styli, is capable of fully captivating me while listening to my records. But that's just me; for those who appreciate "the inherent strengths of a moving coil cartridge" that Mr. Pig mentioned, putting more money into a cartridge could be money very well spent.
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
I knew Curtis also and experienced his demonstration also, which was standard fare for a Linn dealer. It was true that a Basik or K-9 sounded best on a LP/12 Ittok versus whatever was put on a Linn Axis. I follow the same mantra today with my own turntables. But not everyone has to follow the same path, and some people do get satisfaction putting a more expensive cartridge on a frugal turntable. Moving magnet and moving coil cartridges have a different presentation, and at this point you are going to hear it. Now you can have a preference of one over the other, and there are legitimate strengths to both actors. What the listener appreciates is up to them, and they only have to satisfy themselves not the other people who post on AK. In this hobby we should appreciate this rennisance of vinyl we have got to experience, as vinyl was declared dead a number of years ago. The reality is we are a community of record lovers and we can have a different path and journey. We should support other travelers, and celebrate with them in their triumphs, and offer encouragement and support when there are challenges. Yes we offer advice and relate experiences, but in the end it the travelers responsibility to pick their path and enjoy their journey. Not everyone is required to walk the same footsteps.
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Yes, Curtis did great demos, plus being an extraordinarily decent fellow, but my auditions were done before Curtis moved to Washington, so it was Mark Ormiston of Definitive Audio that introduced me to Linn Products, Inc.
Nicely put, and I don't think there was anything that would contradict that in my earlier reply.
Price envy.
nailer
audionerd
Although many cartridges being retipped are not exactly massed produced, and just saying something doesn't necessarily make it so.
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The video tour of Ortofon show them using digital optical comparators to set stones.