whoaru99
Epic Member
Ripple current rating mostly about tolerance to ripple. It's not like there's a bigger dude in there pushing out the electrons harder.
old capacitors (in their day) vs new
- Thread starter yotems
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Ripple current rating mostly about tolerance to ripple. It's not like there's a bigger dude in there pushing out the electrons harder.
but more ripple is more energy..... a tolerance to more energy is probably good for sound
ok like i said, not using them, they are sitting on a shelf
Doesn't quite work that way. Ripple current is what a power supply capacitor has to deal with. The output of the rectifier is not clean happy DC voltage. Its a ripply wave form that looks like this:
Ripple current is the current that the capacitor has to supply in the periods when the output of the rectifier is low, and the current back into the cap to charge it on the peaks. The ripple current rating of the capacitor is just how much of that it can deal with. Its not any sort of energy rating, its simply a capability rating. Think of it like a weight rating on a shelf. Its not what the shelf weighs, its just what you can put on it before it fails. The "energy rating" is a combination of the capacitance value and the ESR value. More capacity = more stored energy. Lower ESR means it can deliver a higher amount of current. Thats not necessarily related to the ripple current rating, but it is related to how much dip and sag can be measured in an amplifier if you ask it to reproduce some high power impulse, say a bass drum hit. Its a big power sucker but for a short period. A high ESR capacitor cannot deliver as much current, so the power supply voltage sags more and you get less power output as a result.
The type of terminals on caps really doesn't have a lot to do with anything. The fact that things aren't available anymore isn't part of some conspiracy to keep "the good stuff" away from us plebes, its simply not in heavy demand anymore so manufacturers don't make it. Things are not commonly built with point to point wiring anymore, so caps that were wired up that way and mounted in clamps aren't really needed. Modern stuff solders the capacitor terminals to a circuit board because its easier to build it that way. You can't easily get bias ply tires or TV tubes tested at the drug store anymore either. Its not a conspiracy, there just isn't a demand.
I would suggest that if your gear sounds worse after being worked on, either the work wasn't done correctly or the wrong parts were used. There are modern caps that would be worse performing than the originals, but you'd have to look at the spec sheets to make sure you're using appropriate replacement parts.
whoaru99
Epic Member
More ripple would be more noise in the power supply but not more stored energy.
I sense you may be misunderstanding a capacitor's ripple rating to mean that high ripple is a good thing. Generally speaking high ripple rating is a good thing, but high ripple itself is not a good thing - as gadget 73 described.
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ConradH
Lunatic Member
Dynamo hum!
Gadget 73 put it very well. Think of ripple current rating as being similar to a resistors wattage rating. It tells you how well the cap can get rid of its arch enemy, heat. Ripple current passes through the esr and you get heat- P=I^2 x esr. How warm that power makes it get depends on how much surface area it has to dissipate the heat, but also how well the heat can get from the actual cap guts to the metal can and terminals. I'm not saying bigger is always better, but a higher value cap will give you less ripple and invariably have a higher ripple current rating. Win-win. Tiny caps with decent ripple ratings are the result of better technology overcoming the smaller surface area. Fortunately, audio equipment is usually idling along at way less then full output, so nothing gets very stressed. Run a cap up near it's ripple current rating and you'll see why they spec them as low as 2000 hours, less than a year if run 24/7.
Caveats- Know the esr at the frequency in use, usually 120 or 100 Hz for a FWB. Measure the ripple current with a true RMS meter, as it's no sine wave. All this is for aluminum electrolytic caps- you'll never have an issue with films.
Gadget 73 put it very well. Think of ripple current rating as being similar to a resistors wattage rating. It tells you how well the cap can get rid of its arch enemy, heat. Ripple current passes through the esr and you get heat- P=I^2 x esr. How warm that power makes it get depends on how much surface area it has to dissipate the heat, but also how well the heat can get from the actual cap guts to the metal can and terminals. I'm not saying bigger is always better, but a higher value cap will give you less ripple and invariably have a higher ripple current rating. Win-win. Tiny caps with decent ripple ratings are the result of better technology overcoming the smaller surface area. Fortunately, audio equipment is usually idling along at way less then full output, so nothing gets very stressed. Run a cap up near it's ripple current rating and you'll see why they spec them as low as 2000 hours, less than a year if run 24/7.
Caveats- Know the esr at the frequency in use, usually 120 or 100 Hz for a FWB. Measure the ripple current with a true RMS meter, as it's no sine wave. All this is for aluminum electrolytic caps- you'll never have an issue with films.
Blue Shadow
Waiting for Vintage Gear from this century
I mentioned this in another thread. The older caps have different specs than newer caps. I can't say for sure what the specs were in the old caps but the new caps have published specs. When you get to the larger caps, ±20% is common and with modern 6-sigma manufacturing techniques, the cap can be built at the low end of the range, say 10-15% below the value stamped on the cap. Back in the day, statistical process control was just getting underway with W. Edwards Deming's work at Sony in the 50s. I'm sure that the improvements were spread throughout Japan but how long it took to get to the capacitor manufacturers, I don't know so a new cap back then, maybe rated -10%/+70% may well have been built at the +20% level to achieve consistent 'on-grade' production. I'm not saying this is the way they were made, just throwing it into the discussion on caps.
This means that 10,000 cap would be measured at 8500-9000 for a new cap and measured at 12000 for an old cap when new. That is a big enough difference to be a possible cause of the lack of performance on the new caps. We may be putting in caps that were below what was used back then and calling it good.
This means that 10,000 cap would be measured at 8500-9000 for a new cap and measured at 12000 for an old cap when new. That is a big enough difference to be a possible cause of the lack of performance on the new caps. We may be putting in caps that were below what was used back then and calling it good.
Doesn't quite work that way. Ripple current is what a power supply capacitor has to deal with. The output of the rectifier is not clean happy DC voltage. Its a ripply wave form that looks like this:
Ripple current is the current that the capacitor has to supply in the periods when the output of the rectifier is low, and the current back into the cap to charge it on the peaks. The ripple current rating of the capacitor is just how much of that it can deal with. Its not any sort of energy rating, its simply a capability rating. Think of it like a weight rating on a shelf. Its not what the shelf weighs, its just what you can put on it before it fails. The "energy rating" is a combination of the capacitance value and the ESR value. More capacity = more stored energy. Lower ESR means it can deliver a higher amount of current. Thats not necessarily related to the ripple current rating, but it is related to how much dip and sag can be measured in an amplifier if you ask it to reproduce some high power impulse, say a bass drum hit. Its a big power sucker but for a short period. A high ESR capacitor cannot deliver as much current, so the power supply voltage sags more and you get less power output as a result.
The type of terminals on caps really doesn't have a lot to do with anything. The fact that things aren't available anymore isn't part of some conspiracy to keep "the good stuff" away from us plebes, its simply not in heavy demand anymore so manufacturers don't make it. Things are not commonly built with point to point wiring anymore, so caps that were wired up that way and mounted in clamps aren't really needed. Modern stuff solders the capacitor terminals to a circuit board because its easier to build it that way. You can't easily get bias ply tires or TV tubes tested at the drug store anymore either. Its not a conspiracy, there just isn't a demand.
I would suggest that if your gear sounds worse after being worked on, either the work wasn't done correctly or the wrong parts were used. There are modern caps that would be worse performing than the originals, but you'd have to look at the spec sheets to make sure you're using appropriate replacement parts.
i was loving all of this until you made the lack of quality capacitors into some sort of "conspiracy" as to why they are harder to come across.
cheaper manufacturing processes... they solder the leads to the boards now, things are smaller, less wires... turning a profit isnt a conspiracy. it costs more to produce the quality japanese caps that used to be in hifi equipment than it does to produce these smaller ones. the cornells i have on the way have a lower ESR and higher ripple rating than the nichicon kg's... they also costed little more than twice as much per cap than the kgs!
no one said it was some sort of conspiracy as to why we dont have good caps widely available anymore. just seems like all these awesome large capacitors from the past were really well built. their performance when in spec shows that. the new caps do the job but not as good.
i said it once and ill say it again. cheaper manufacturing processes is why we have more cheap crap available than ever. its much harder to sift through all the crap to find something good when its not a priority to have something good out to be used in manufacturing. ive seen some pretty cheap capacitors in new high end receivers....
the old ce62w rubycons most likely had a lower ESR, higher ripple rating, and more actual capacitance
still cant imagine how a capacitors ability to handle current doesnt affect sound. like with dynamic bass hits.................................
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if one can handle more current before "breaking" then doesnt that mean if you push the nichicon past the breaking point it will sound like crap? or maybe it means it cant handle high ripple current that is responsible for the dynamic bass hits i used to have with the rubycons
whoaru99
Epic Member
Of course. If the capacitor is designed to be used where there is high ripple current then it has to be built to handle it.
There is a large plug with large terminals on the cord to an electric range or welder. There is a small plug with relatively small terminals on the table lamp. Why? Because they are designed with the expected current requirements in mind.
well then why did you say the terminals on caps really dont have anything to do with anything?
It might do... (by the way it's "EI") but you haven't said anything about the size of the toroidal transformer you are comparing it with?
Raccoon1400
Super Member
I have noticed that old caps usually measure at then higher end of tolerance, and new caps measure lower.
thats funny because when i type EL transformer into google, the same stuff comes up as if i said El.... im not comparing transformers. im saying an EL transformer of respective size/output would create more ripple current than a toroidal of respective size/output. whether thats true or not im not sure, but it would make sense
ok, you could have said Ei instead of EI... EI looks no different than El <i used a lower case L vs upper case i