Open Baffle Epiphany!
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dnewma04
The Healer
In the next few months, I'll be getting a quad of AE Dipole 15s to couple with some electrostatic panels from Involve Audio. I'll have my own thread, but will post progress pics in here, as well. I'll probably go with active crossovers despite the panels lower sensitivity allowing passive, comfortably.
cubdog
banging through drywall
They are detailed in my build thread in the DIY Forum. I got so frustrated I moved the OB to my basement workout station. I'll tackle the problem again but honestly without hands on help from someone I'm not sure I'll be able to resolve the issues. Of my many weaknesses, a lack of even simple electronics, such as I'm faced with here, and a lack of patience for such problems are two.
cubdog
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
This turn that the thread has taken is rather curious indeed. In another thread in the General page there was a discussion of why the OP spent $$$ on hi-fi. Of course this was a hot button topic, and the camps came out of the woodwork. One of them being what others refer to as the wallet police, along with the supposedly snobby audiophile who had more money than brains, and the other various factions. And here in this thread I find the same kind of thing happening with this discussion of woofers. Somehow I am not surprised.
I know very little about open baffles, aside form the pair I am listening to now, and some of the planar types of speakers I have heard over the years, that have certain attributes with OB speakers with conventional drivers. But I do know what I hear from my particular set of speakers I bought at the end of last year, and I hear a lot of potential. But speakers are peculiar creatures, and they are far more distinctive than many of the other audio components we have in our systems. So each speaker design is going to have its own particular set of strengths and weaknesses, and therefore will appeal to some people and not others. The attributes of the speaker in question will dictate the configuration of the rest of the system. Unless the owner of said system has strong opinions on what amplification should be, then the speakers must have a certain set of characteristics to be compatible with the amplifier.
And I think that is what is happening in this thread. One particular person is an advocate of low powered tube and chip amplifiers, and that dictates the need for efficient speaker systems. In this case it means full range drivers with higher efficiency, and a woofer system with plate amplifiers to produce the needed SPL to match the higher output drivers. Now if this person were interested in bang for the buck audio, then it means that drivers that are reasonably priced and meets the minimum standards of performance are all that is needed. So we get a recommendation for an affordable driver such as the Eminence Alpha 15. And this position is further bolstered by the writings of others who are well versed in OB design, and it certainly makes sense that this is a good driver for this application. While this thought may not be completely aligned with the teachings of the wallet police, it does seem to be closely affiliated with them.
Yet we have another group that says there is something past the Alpha 15, and to achieve that next level of performance is more expensive, perhaps a bit more complicated, but in the end there are further gains in performance to be had. And they reference the same designer that also used the more affordable driver in his work. Confusing isn't it.
So who is right? What is the truth? All I know is I don't know. As a general rule I tend to avoid the dogmatic stance of my way is the only way....so I would suspect that there are other ways do things other than a full range driver and the Alpha 15's. But that is not to say there is not merit in this combination, and I bet it is very good for the money spent. But I have listened to full range drivers for over a decade, and I understand that they have their own set of strengths and limitations. Seems to be a pattern in audio gear..all gear does some things well and other things not as well. But as designs progress the limitations become smaller, less frequent, and the device is more even keeled across the audio bandwidth. But there is always a but. I have listened to many of the Fostex drivers, Audio Nirvana, Lowther, and what not, and while I found their limitations to be a deal breaker in the long run...I have yet to hear the true upper tier ones like AER. So I cannot say that there is not a full range driver I would like, but at this time I won't spend the money to trial them.
While I do agree that the drivers that cover the music from 50 hertz and on up are the "money drivers", I just think there are many configurations capable of filling this job. Linkwitz uses conventional drivers, SP Technology uses waveguide loaded high efficiency drivers, Hawthorne Speakers horn load an ESS driver with a 10" mid bass driver. So there are a lot of ways of doing this, and each have their own particular strength and weaknesses....and will appeal to some people and not others. But this is the nature of this hobby.
So what does this post mean? Probably not much of anything, especially considering I have limited long term exposure to OB speakers. But I do believe that there is more than one way to design a style of speaker, and more than one way to put together an audio system, and that every one of us has an individual preference of how we want to hear our audio. So the only way to know for sure is to listen to various speaker designs and driver configurations and make up your own mind. Which means you gotta invest some money in these projects and decide where is a good path to follow and a good place to stop. There are no easy answers, and no guru's who can guarantee audio salvation for you, and so you have to be responsible for what you spend your money on and be accountable for what the end result is. Perhaps you get it right the first time, and perhaps not. But audio is a journey, and audio systems are not an appliance like a microwave. You spend some money and enjoy the sounds of what you buy. It is your responsibility to make sure you understand what appeals to you, what brings you satisfaction, and then go on a search for what gear and system confugurations that can bring that about. Well that's how I see it at least.....
Now where did I leave that truffle? Oink snort grunt oink snort sniff sniff sniff.....
Regards
Mister Pig
I know very little about open baffles, aside form the pair I am listening to now, and some of the planar types of speakers I have heard over the years, that have certain attributes with OB speakers with conventional drivers. But I do know what I hear from my particular set of speakers I bought at the end of last year, and I hear a lot of potential. But speakers are peculiar creatures, and they are far more distinctive than many of the other audio components we have in our systems. So each speaker design is going to have its own particular set of strengths and weaknesses, and therefore will appeal to some people and not others. The attributes of the speaker in question will dictate the configuration of the rest of the system. Unless the owner of said system has strong opinions on what amplification should be, then the speakers must have a certain set of characteristics to be compatible with the amplifier.
And I think that is what is happening in this thread. One particular person is an advocate of low powered tube and chip amplifiers, and that dictates the need for efficient speaker systems. In this case it means full range drivers with higher efficiency, and a woofer system with plate amplifiers to produce the needed SPL to match the higher output drivers. Now if this person were interested in bang for the buck audio, then it means that drivers that are reasonably priced and meets the minimum standards of performance are all that is needed. So we get a recommendation for an affordable driver such as the Eminence Alpha 15. And this position is further bolstered by the writings of others who are well versed in OB design, and it certainly makes sense that this is a good driver for this application. While this thought may not be completely aligned with the teachings of the wallet police, it does seem to be closely affiliated with them.
Yet we have another group that says there is something past the Alpha 15, and to achieve that next level of performance is more expensive, perhaps a bit more complicated, but in the end there are further gains in performance to be had. And they reference the same designer that also used the more affordable driver in his work. Confusing isn't it.
So who is right? What is the truth? All I know is I don't know. As a general rule I tend to avoid the dogmatic stance of my way is the only way....so I would suspect that there are other ways do things other than a full range driver and the Alpha 15's. But that is not to say there is not merit in this combination, and I bet it is very good for the money spent. But I have listened to full range drivers for over a decade, and I understand that they have their own set of strengths and limitations. Seems to be a pattern in audio gear..all gear does some things well and other things not as well. But as designs progress the limitations become smaller, less frequent, and the device is more even keeled across the audio bandwidth. But there is always a but. I have listened to many of the Fostex drivers, Audio Nirvana, Lowther, and what not, and while I found their limitations to be a deal breaker in the long run...I have yet to hear the true upper tier ones like AER. So I cannot say that there is not a full range driver I would like, but at this time I won't spend the money to trial them.
While I do agree that the drivers that cover the music from 50 hertz and on up are the "money drivers", I just think there are many configurations capable of filling this job. Linkwitz uses conventional drivers, SP Technology uses waveguide loaded high efficiency drivers, Hawthorne Speakers horn load an ESS driver with a 10" mid bass driver. So there are a lot of ways of doing this, and each have their own particular strength and weaknesses....and will appeal to some people and not others. But this is the nature of this hobby.
So what does this post mean? Probably not much of anything, especially considering I have limited long term exposure to OB speakers. But I do believe that there is more than one way to design a style of speaker, and more than one way to put together an audio system, and that every one of us has an individual preference of how we want to hear our audio. So the only way to know for sure is to listen to various speaker designs and driver configurations and make up your own mind. Which means you gotta invest some money in these projects and decide where is a good path to follow and a good place to stop. There are no easy answers, and no guru's who can guarantee audio salvation for you, and so you have to be responsible for what you spend your money on and be accountable for what the end result is. Perhaps you get it right the first time, and perhaps not. But audio is a journey, and audio systems are not an appliance like a microwave. You spend some money and enjoy the sounds of what you buy. It is your responsibility to make sure you understand what appeals to you, what brings you satisfaction, and then go on a search for what gear and system confugurations that can bring that about. Well that's how I see it at least.....
Now where did I leave that truffle? Oink snort grunt oink snort sniff sniff sniff.....
Regards
Mister Pig
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cubdog
banging through drywall
I have been playing with the idea of using a passive crossover with my OBs. Once designed, I like the simplicity. However, because I do not know what their final configuration will be I'm not sure it would be feasible at this time.
cubdog
Why is it confusing? If you looking for a single simple answer there is none, only a bunch of trade-offs.
The Alpha 15A is an entry level OB woofer, it does some things real well and is very flexible in how it can be configured. Passive or active crossovers both can work with this driver. It is fairly efficient and not cost prohibitive, a nice set of trade-offs for the DIYer looking for a bass driver for a dipole system. The same can be said for some of the Goldwood, Hawthorne, and GRS drivers. I recommend the Alpha 15A for people starting out with dipole speakers because it is hard to screw up the bass using this driver, the crossover and going with a full range driver or a mid bass and tweeter are personal preferences. The Alpha 15A driver has high quality control by Eminence so you know what to expect for T/S parameters, some of the other entry level drivers are not at the same level of quality control which can be problematic. I have used small full range drivers because it is the easiest path forward and a small full range driver that does not need to produce bass frequencies can be an excellent performer covering the remaining audio spectrum.
The Dipole 15 is a big jump up in cost. It is a little more difficult to configure the crossover and really needs an active system. Commercial systems using this driver tend to have 2 to 4 per side, an even bigger increase in cost. It is a higher quality driver in both construction and low end extension/performance compared to the Alpha 15A. In the end the DIYer's room, system, musical demands, and wallet need to determine if it is worth the additional effort and cost for potentially deeper bass.
If the DIYer is unsure of his/her abilities to design and build a dipole speaker then to me one of the entry level woofers makes sense and staying close to an existing design is probably the correct path to follow to learn and gain experience. If the DIYer has built a few dipole speakers and is well versed in the design and construction as well as the crossover trade-offs then spending more for the Dipole 15 drivers will yield better bass performance.
Entry level or high end woofers can produce a dipole speaker that performs well and is very enjoyable. There is no one correct woofer solution that will please everybody.
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Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
And I thought that was the underlying theme to my post.....
As a general rule I tend to avoid the dogmatic stance of my way is the only way....so I would suspect that there are other ways do things other than a full range driver and the Alpha 15's. But that is not to say there is not merit in this combination, and I bet it is very good for the money spent.
and
But I do believe that there is more than one way to design a style of speaker, and more than one way to put together an audio system, and that every one of us has an individual preference of how we want to hear our audio. So the only way to know for sure is to listen to various speaker designs and driver configurations and make up your own mind. Which means you gotta invest some money in these projects and decide where is a good path to follow and a good place to stop. There are no easy answers, and no guru's who can guarantee audio salvation for you....
and
So there are a lot of ways of doing this, and each have their own particular strength and weaknesses....and will appeal to some people and not others. But this is the nature of this hobby.
Regards
Mister Pig
Obviously I did not get your underlying theme, I do not read between the words well.
Mr pigs post is kind of AK sociology. MJKs post more engineering. Both valid and interesting
PastTechFan
Super Member
Well, I feel a bit of a fool pointing to my first OB effort as any example, and I have no doubt that I have committed a bunch of sonic sins in my mash up, but playing around with my lo-buck drivers and rudimentary crossovers has given me a great lot of fun and, to my old ears, my masonite boards give off VERY good vibrations.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=588445&page=2
God knows what they would sound like to a discerning ear, but I only have my own, and I hear beautiful music!
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Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Well that is interesting, as I was a sociology minor in college. Was going to double major but life circumstances required me to leave once my BA in Business Admin was completed. And my wife is a social worker for Washington state, with her BA and Masters in the field.
Perhaps an insightful post of yours!
Regards
Mister Pig
cubdog
banging through drywall
Wes_in_VA
Super Member
As much as love the OB's that I built using Fostex FR drivers and MCM 10" woofers to provide some bass:
...I've now fallen in love with some Tekton 4.5 OB's that I picked up last week.
They're slightly smoother in the top end than the OB's I built, and the bass is a little nicer, too.
Yesterday I decided to play around with an H frame woofer so I stuck a Klipsch woofer I had lying around in a cardboard box. Wow.
The only issue is that now my B&W's don't sound nearly as good to me as they once did.
...I've now fallen in love with some Tekton 4.5 OB's that I picked up last week.
They're slightly smoother in the top end than the OB's I built, and the bass is a little nicer, too.
Yesterday I decided to play around with an H frame woofer so I stuck a Klipsch woofer I had lying around in a cardboard box. Wow.
The only issue is that now my B&W's don't sound nearly as good to me as they once did.
Poultrygeist
Lunatic Member
…"I've now fallen in love with some Tekton 4.5OB's that I picked up last week"
Great choice!
The Tekton 4.5OB's are excellent but they're even better with H-frame Alphas.
Great choice!
The Tekton 4.5OB's are excellent but they're even better with H-frame Alphas.
PR Audio
Super Member
…"I've now fallen in love with some Tekton 4.5OB's that I picked up last week"
Great choice!
The Tekton 4.5OB's are excellent but they're even better with H-frame Alphas.
Full of envy!!! As you know, those are my inspiration for my DIY hybrid OB bookshelves (have all the components and design, just waiting on some freaking extra time to build). I will not do a more traditional build with a front facing woofer on the bottom vented enclosure (HiVi M5N), and a Markaudio CHR-70a for the top OB.
How do they sound, what's your take on them?
Poultrygeist
Lunatic Member
Thanks. Looking forward to your build after those interesting PM's.
The little 4" Fostex drivers are highly detailed and image like crazy but they need some bass augmentation. I believe Tekton still sells matching dual subs designed to be used as speaker stands for the OB4.5.