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Pink Floyd slams Pandora

I would think most artists, especially the relatively unkown, would welcome as many outlets that might play their music as possible, even if it meant zero royalties. I can't see how they'd make more money with even less exposure. A band like Pink Floyd, although way less relevant today then they once were, doesn't really need internet exposure, so I doubt they really know where the "little guy" is coming from.

I've purchased some songs lately from Amazon because I heard them on various internet sites that I would normally never heard, and therefore never purchased, so I think they're out in left field on this one and not seeing the whole picture.
 
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Almost everybody does something for a living, I'm not sure who decided if you make music or movies, it's worth many times over what most professions make per year. They can't do what I do any more than I can do what they do.

I've never heard of a main stream band that lives pay check to pay check like most of us do. I wish I received royalty checks every time someone used a product that contained a circuit board I built.

Most bands make very little money. As in, probably less than whatever you are making, even if you are making very little. One of my good friends is in a band that was popular in the last decade and we were talking about Spotify, MOG, etc, and he said that what they're paid for these services, which have essentially replaced CD sales with the exception of iTunes, is close to nothing. A few pop artists have gotten rich off of what they do. Probably 90% of bands that aren't Top-40, which is most bands, do it only because they love to make music. Because they're NOT well reimbursed for it. It often comes down to T-shirt sales at shows to make any sort of profit whatsoever.

I recommend the documentary "Tell Me Do You Miss Me" about that band Luna, a band just outside the Top-40, and also the Pixies documentary "LoudQuietLoud" to see what its like for most working musicians of somewhat successful bands.
 
Most bands make very little money. As in, probably less than whatever you are making, even if you are making very little. One of my good friends is in a band that was popular in the last decade and we were talking about Spotify, MOG, etc, and he said that what they're paid for these services, which have essentially replaced CD sales with the exception of iTunes, is close to nothing. A few pop artists have gotten rich off of what they do. Probably 90% of bands that aren't Top-40, which is most bands, do it only because they love to make music. Because they're NOT well reimbursed for it. It often comes down to T-shirt sales at shows to make any sort of profit whatsoever.

I recommend the documentary "Tell Me Do You Miss Me" about that band Luna, a band just outside the Top-40, and also the Pixies documentary "LoudQuietLoud" to see what its like for most working musicians of somewhat successful bands.

Yeah, I was off base on that comment. I was thinking of Pink Floyd when I wrote this, but I'm sure there are many bands that are nearly broke because they haven't "made it" yet, and to them they'll take whatever money they can get.

Of course, that article might have been better presented by such a band rather than members of Pink Floyd thinking they were speaking on their behalf.

Kind of like when a rich celebrity tries to lecture the public on poverty.
 
Am I the only person who agrees with Pink Floyd here? I don't think they're arguing because they are greedy, they're arguing for the sake of struggling musicians (they say 90% of them get less than $5000 from online revenue from services like Pandora) I don't listen to Pandora, I don't like the ads and I don't like not controlling exactly the song I want to listen to. My wife listens to it... She hasn't bought a cd in years. What's the point for her? She just puts on Pandora.

If we actually look at what Pink Floyd is saying in their Op/Ed piece, they seem to be making two points.

The first is that they object to Pandora sending out letters requesting artists to 'support' them without telling them that by signing the letters, they are actually signing on as supporters of a change in the law that would lower the mandated royalty payments. If that is in fact what Pandora is doing, I certainly agree with Pink Floyd on that. Underhanded tricks are not something I support.

The second is that they disagree with the concept of lowering the royalties paid by online streaming music providers such as Pandora. That is subject to debate.

Frankly, I don't have a dog in the latter fight, and I don't much care one way or another how they work it out; it won't affect me either way. I don't listen to Pandora, and I haven't bought new music in quite some time; I buy records and cds at thrift shops.

As what's fair compensation for Pink Floyd or anyone else, I don't really care. I've suggested an equitable alternative that would permit copyright holders to state what they want to receive, and streaming music providers can decide whether or not to pay it.

I only disagree with mandated flat payments where the market cannot compete.
 
First off, I'm not a fan of paying more for anything, but there's a point where reason has to enter into it. Music is big business now, and expensive. The money has to come from somewhere, and every little rip and flip impacts the bottom line. Let's face it - if everyone was basically honest and actually bought what they listen to, this argument would probably never come up. I personally haven't a problem with paying a fair price for what I enjoy.

For folks like them who've made it big, it's diificult for the average hard-working American to shed a lot of tears

Look at it this way ... A band of Floyd's prominence can make a big difference in determining what exactly "fair play" constitutes for the up and coming bands. There's an advantage to being in the spotlight that I expect they feel they have the right and also a duty to exploit.

If Pandora can't make a profit and pay the artists fair compensation, then they have the wrong business model.

:thmbsp:

'Pink Floyd in their Op/Ed piece compare the cost of paying royalties to the cost of buying groceries. But that is a false analogy. Because, you see, if I am a grocery store, my goal is to pay the lowest prices for the goods I sell, and to sell them for the highest prices I can. The market controls what I can sell for, that's free enterprise for you.

Or looked at another way - your ability to go shopping about for a better deal is definitely influenced by what options the big boys leave you with. Their lower rates and better deals require the smaller players to reduce their profit margins and sustainability.

Not sure which side of the argument that fits on ... but having the big players actually fighting for the rights of the up and coming bands just helps ensure their longevity, and gives a big boost to the next generation of Floyds.

The problem is, they also need to then picket, Apple, Amazon, Spotify, MOG, etc. Doing this against only one is disingenuous and shows a bias.

I'd think that's coming, based on the results of their current campaign. Call it a market test to see what the response and potential gain for yes, them, but also current and future artists. It's been mentioned that we're on the bleeding edge of digital, good and bad, and now is the time to sort things out.
 
Struggling musicians get screwed by the recording industry not Pandora and any like that. It is like complaining about spending a nickle and burning a dollar bill.

The recording industry charges the musical group for everything against their signing check - so in essence, they get NO money. So they have to tour to make some money.

It is the recording industry that needs a redo - nothing else.

Well sure they get screwed by the recording industry and not by Pandora, but I've got to say it looks like Pandora is ready to start doing some screwing too.

To me recording labels are dinosaurs. If I was in a band I'd front the fees to record my album myself. That means having it ready to go so it could be done in days rather than weeks. I'd host it on my own website and have direct downloads for $3-4. Make more money that way, the fans pay less... Everybody wins.

What is a label for these days? They're almost irrelevant, they certainly shouldn't be taking the lions share of the profits.
 
"they want to hide behind what is essentially a non-free enterprise price-fixing scheme."

But what about the idea that, left to their own devices, the "market" would pay...
Nothing.
Which is quite true.
So then, what?

I have to disagree with this.
Look at kickstarter. People give up money for NO return (except maybe the hope of seeing a finished product they can then BUY).

Better yet, look at Justin Frankel and his silly little Winamp program. He gave it away, asking for a donation if you like it.
He was making $50K/month in college.

Of course people want something for free, but are willing to pay a reasonable price for something they want.

Trying to convince people that after 25 years, CDs should still be $18/pop, is NOT reasonable (much like $125/ticket to see a band play in concert).
 
Working in the CPG (consumer packaged goods) industry (think anything that sells in a grocery store) PF's metaphor was really interesting. Wigwam's point that the retailer's job is to attain product at the lowest cost is 100% true. The retailer is all about maximizing profit margin. This holds true for the manufacturer as well. Anti trust laws force manufacturers to offer a fair price to all retailers. This way certain retailers cant just take over the market. That said, there are so many ways around that price point its not even funny. I can say, that Wal-Mart with its insane buying power purchases goods at a lower rate that your regional store. The face price up front is the same, but with bill-backs, off-invoices, accruals etc etc WalMart is getting money back. This is often based on volume. ie: walmart orders 10,000 cases and their price is $x/case while a smaller account orders 500 cases at $y/case. In my mind the comparison of grocery stores not complaining about the cost of groceries makes perfect sense.

If Pandora's audience is so much larger, then im sure Pandora could work out a system where the artist/label take a smaller cut, in trade for higher volume, basically giving them the same $ profit. Smaller streaming companies would have to pay a premium to get those big name artists, just like every other industry. The record labels and the retailers need to figure out how much $ they want to make, and how much money they will tolerate the other party making. If ABC Records sells a song to iTunes for $1000 and iTunes sells 100,000 copies at $1.00 a pop, then ABC made a bad deal. The companies need to help one another and realize that the only way to profit is to partner and work together to achieve the same goal: drive profit.

If artists dont agree to the pay structure etc for a certain service then dont sign them to play your music. And dont complain that no one listens to you. Lower pay stubs from things like spotify and pandora make sense. Im not paying $1.00 for that song, because I dont own it. I cant open it if im offline, or transfer it to another device etc. Pandora/spotify owns the song, im just listening to it.

Now to give my real opinion on the music industry, if you put it in a format that I can easily copy, transfer, etc etc dont complain... LP's worked because the average person couldnt "burn" an LP. This forced everyone to go spend $ and buy LPs. Same with 8track. Then the CD came along. Lower quality, but its 1000 times cheaper for the record label to produce, selling for the same price if not more means more profit. Then someone figured out how to read and copy one. Then the music industry discovered the mp3. One of the worst possible ways to code music. Lower quality than CD, but with the mp3 there isnt any cost at all. They just need a computer and a hard drive. No manufacturing, shipping, storage cost as all. If they sell something it is pure profit. Any moron with a keyboard can copy/paste. And then the walls came crashing down. 1 person pays for the song, copy/paste now 1000 people have it.

If the record companies dont want me to download their music, then make it a format that takes me longer than 3 seconds to copy 1000 songs...

At the end of the day lets try and remember that money makes the world go round, and the entire argument about licensing, piracy, etc is all about people trying to reap the maximum profit they can. Its simple economics.


'Fair' is a relative term.

EDIT:

In fact, to expand upon that, Pink Floyd in their Op/Ed piece compare the cost of paying royalties to the cost of buying groceries. But that is a false analogy. Because, you see, if I am a grocery store, my goal is to pay the lowest prices for the goods I sell, and to sell them for the highest prices I can. The market controls what I can sell for, that's free enterprise for you. But I am free to attempt to get lower prices from my suppliers, and if there is sufficient competition, then they may be forced to reduce their prices to me (just as the market forces me to lower my prices for retail customers if there is sufficient competition).

However the royalty rates are not something one can go shopping for; they're fixed.

So it's just not a valid comparison.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pandora is a free service - other than the delivery method, how is it so different from a traditional broadcast radio station? Last I heard, your average classic rock station pays no royalties to Pink Floyd - perhaps the solution isn't changing the amounts paid for royalties, but to treat Pandora like a broadcast radio station and not have to pay royalties in the first place.

-D
 
Do any of you guys realize how FM radio royalties work? (edit: well, one of you does ;)) That's what the inside argument is really about, and it's a toughie. I agree about the "petition" tactic being a bit sneaky, and I think this article is mostly trying to alert bands to think twice about it.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pandora is a free service - other than the delivery method, how is it so different from a traditional broadcast radio station? Last I heard, your average classic rock station pays no royalties to Pink Floyd - perhaps the solution isn't changing the amounts paid for royalties, but to treat Pandora like a broadcast radio station and not have to pay royalties in the first place.

-D

Different situation:

http://www.soundexchange.com/service-provider/licensing-101/

Online streaming media companies are not treated the same way as broadcast stations for the purpose of paying royalties, by law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundExchange
 
Pandora claims they pay much more than services like XM. Not sure if this is true or not but its on the Internet. I'm not convinced you can compare the two services apples to apples.

http://www.pandora.com/static/ads/irfa/irfa.html

Excerpt from Pandora's claim are below. Who sets royalty rates, the government? I'm not sure what legislation has to do with it otherwise.



WHAT IS THE ISSUE?
The issue is long-standing royalty rate discrimination against internet radio. As each new form of radio was invented (including cable and satellite radio), new legislation was passed but only addressed the new form. The result is dramatically different royalty rates: satellite pays about 7.5% of revenues and cable pays about 15%, while Pandora pays more than 50% of revenue in royalties. The inequity in how different digital radio formats are treated under the law when it comes to setting royalties is a clear case of legislation falling behind advances in technology. The current law penalizes new media and is astonishingly unfair to internet radio.
 
I see XM and a site such as MOG or Spotify as two totally different things (I haven't used Pandora in a long time). Mog and Spotify can easily act as a replacement for buying albums, as you can just call up exactly what you want and listen in album-format. You could, in theory, just have a Mog subscription and own no media, and have an essentially unchanged listening habit. XM is not like that. It's like FM, giving you random music lumped by genre.
 
It's really not a rabbit hole I recommend going down. You're just going to end up really really wishing we could scrap the whole mess (for all formats) and start over from scratch with music royalties and related fees, but we can't. It's kind of like setting out to form an opinion on what to do about campaign finance, i.e. have fun! ;) If you want to support artists, buy their records and go to their concerts.
 
Speaking of fair play ... it's not all Floyd pitchin' a bitch. Here's a list of artists that signed the petition to Congress when this came up last year:

Bryan Adams, Alabama, Greg Allman, Steve Angello, Rodney Atkins, Sara Bareilles, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, Clint Black, Jack Blades, Blondie, Jonatha Brooke, Jackson Browne, Jimmy Buffett, Oteil Burbridge, The Cab, Colbie Caillat, Camper Van Beethoven, CoCo Carmel, George Clinton, Keyshia Cole, Common, Easton Corbin, Cowboy Mouth, Cracker, Randy Crawford, Robert Cray, David Crosby, Joel Crouse, Sheryl Crow, Drew Davis, Taylor Dayne, Dead Kennedys, Raheem DeVaughn, The Doors, Down, The Dream, Vikter Duplaix, Missy Elliott, Lupe Fiasco, The 5th Dimension, Flyleaf, John Fogerty, Guy Forsyth, The Game, Vince Gill, David Gilmour, Genevieve Goings, Martha Reeves, Rihanna, Eric Roberson, Darius Rucker, Rush, Bobby Rush, Joe Sample, David Sanborn, Skid Row, Michael W. Smith, Britney Spears, Dave Stewart, Survivor, T.I., Susan Tedeschi, Robin Thicke, George Thorogood, Toto, Butch Trucks, Derek Trucks, Josh Turner, Frankie Valli and Bob Gaudio (The 4 Seasons), Dionne Warwick, Roger Waters, Bobby Whitlock, Whodini, Chuck Wicks, Otis Williams (The Temptations), Ann and Nancy Wilson (Heart), BrianWilson, BeBeWinans, Zac Brown Band, Andy Grammer, Amy Grant, CeeLo Green, Gyptian, Warren Haynes, Don Henley, Hootie and The Blowfish, Mallary Hope, Bruce Hornsby, Mick Hucknall (Simply Red), The J.Geils Band, Jaimoe, The Jazz Crusaders, Billy Joel, John Paul Jones, Mick Jones (Foreigner), Journey, Jim Kerr and Charlie Burchill (Simple Minds), KISS, Jana Kramer, Ludacris, Maroon 5, Nick Mason, Duff McKagan, Megadeth, Janelle Monae, Alissa Moreno, Jason Mraz, Nas, Graham Nash, Ne-Yo, Stevie Nicks, Night Ranger, Ted Nugent, Owl City, Christina Perri, Katy Perry, Pink Floyd, Robert Plant, John Pointer, The Pointer Sisters, Primus, Marc Quinones, Joel Rafael, Trisha Yearwood, Bonnie Raitt.

... and it's not like Pandora executives are living in squalor trying to make ends meet ...

540465_10150894171993005_316508153_n.jpg


Ya ... I feel their pain ...
 
The result is dramatically different royalty rates: satellite pays about 7.5% of revenues and cable pays about 15%, while Pandora pays more than 50% of revenue in royalties.

Interesting figures, but those are not royalty rates. That just shows how lousy Pandora's business model is.
 
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