Plasma vs. LCD????

[cwall99]

I'm a Panasonic plasma slappy. I've had a Panasonic Viera TC-P50G20 for about a year and a half, and it's an amazing picture. I'm pretty sold on plasmas for the following reasons:

1. Much deeper black levels. The Pannies' black levels are exceeded by the no-longer manufactured Pioneer Elite Kuros.
2. Off-axis viewing on a plasma is much better than an LED/LCD... meaning that if you sit off to the side, which can happen when we have a bunch of folks over for movie nights, you can sit way off to the side of the picture and still see the colors as rich and full as the folks who have their seats in the sweet spot.
3. Plasma has done a better job with complex motion (e.g. a football game) than LCD/LED technology, though wiht the higher and higher and higher refresh rates that LCD and LED technologies are moving to, this is less of a problem.
4. My Pannie has an anti-glare coating on it that sacrifices very little in the way of brightness.
5. Meaning that my plasma set can do very well in a room on the south side of the house with two doorwalls on it. It survives in the bright light of day just fine, thank you very much.

The first two reasons I prefer plasma, above, were enough to cinch it for me. All the other stuff... connectivity and all that stuff is pretty much secondary. I have all the connectivity I need. I manage all the connections I need between my AVR (a terrific Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS) and my television over two cables: the HDMI cable that carries the image from the AVR to the set and the digital fiber optic cable I use to run digital audio back from my television to the AVR when I stream internet content through the TV.

I've had my television about 18 months and I'm still getting regular updates to the web content on a pretty regular basis. Every two or three months or so it seems.

I also have a Panasonic BDP, but I prefer the web interface on the television to the BDP's. I tried running my web content over the BDP, hoping that I could shut off the television when I was streaming Pandora, but there's something in the loop that requires that I keep the set on. Maybe there are other BDPs that would allow this, but I dunno.... And my wife'd kill me if I brought home a new BDP.

 

[whoaru99]

^^^
It's probably the Viera link that keeps things turned on. I usually have my TV on before I turn on the BDP, but I think if I turned on the BDP first it would signal the TV to turn on and change to the input the BDP is connected to.

 

[Vintage_Hi-F]

I've had my television about 18 months and I'm still getting regular updates to the web content on a pretty regular basis. Every two or three months or so it seems..

You do know that 18 months is an eternity in the tech world. Not saying you bought junk just that what was top 18 moths ago is probably not what top any more. I mean my AMD Phenom II X4 3.6ghz CPU was second from the top when I bought it in Feburary it would get it's ass handed to it by the latest AMD X6 line.

 

[cwall99]

You do know that 18 months is an eternity in the tech world. Not saying you bought junk just that what was top 18 moths ago is probably not what top any more. I mean my AMD Phenom II X4 3.6ghz CPU was second from the top when I bought it in Feburary it would get it's ass handed to it by the latest AMD X6 line.

hahahahahahah... Yeah, I know that. However, since I'm not all that interested in 3D, I have no need to go beyond HDMI 1.3. Really, since there's virtually no content that takes care of Deep Color and its auditory equivalent, if you aren't going 3D, you don't need anything beyond HDMI 1.2.

However, your comparison of a PC and a display breaks down pretty quickly when you look at it critically.

Let's break it down:

1. While Moore's Law pretty much means your computer is no longer top of the heap the moment you walk it out of the store into the parking lot, the same doesn't necessarily hold true in regard to displays. Things like processing speed don't, for the most part, play much of a role in a television's performance. Sure, you can add a few extra bells and whistles with that processing power, but that's not the primary function of a display.
2. I never claimed that my current display was the ultimate in technology. However, I still stand by the two things I claimed that plasma sets do much better than LED/LCDs: provide a better picture to off-angle viewers and do much better with deep, rich blacks.
3. The point you make, that technology marches on incessantly, is true, and it's the changes that Panasonic made in their design between the 2009 models and the 2010 models that prompted me to act (for the record, those changes include the anti-glare screen they added and the improved means of handling aging and black levels - the 2009 models had definite problems, but they've been corrected).
4. I've adopted a strategy of figuring out where to spend money and where to incorporate planned obsolescence into my purchasing plans. For instance, while my AVR is good and has good amps, I recognize that it is a receiver..... However, my AVR also has 7.1 analog inputs meaning I can purchase a pre/pro that provides access to the latest HDMI technologies and then use analog outs to provide the analog signal to the amps. Later, when finances allow, I can add amps as needed. When I upgrade my amps, though, I'll be sinking some money into them because that won't really be affected by technology where as the pre/pro side of things will.

So, yeah, while Moore's Law makes a joke of a computer purchase, and while it may affect things like a display, by and large, a display is much more impervious to technological evolution than a computer or a pre/pro is.

 

[JamesDean59]

Another note for Panasonic's plasmas: Panasonic bought up Pioneer Kuro's tech a while back after Pioneer got out of the plasma game. They're being released under the "Infinite Black" name I believe or maybe its "NeoPDP." I think 2010+ higher end Panny's have them.

I bought a 50" in 2008 that went south. It was repaired under warranty. They replaced the entire plasma screen some $1200 in parts alone. A month later the panel went again and they opted to just replace the tv with a newer model, no charge to me. Its a G15 unit I believe.

Earlier this year we got a ST30 60" 3DTV. Beautiful picture.

One thing I did notice, and this goes out to anyone running a PC to their TV, is that the colors/black levels are 100x better if you change the color from RGB to YCBCR444. Try it, you'll thank me later. I am running Windows 7 with an nvidia graphics card. The setting was buried in the nvidia control panel.

 

[AR4x]

Plasma and it got to be Panasonic

 

[Jon_Logan]

We bought a Samsung LED backlit LCD TV and have been very happy with it.

If you do go the plasma route, remember that the pixels are using phosphor and as a result images can be burned in. Don't leave it on a menu or other non changing image.

 

[whoaru99]

We bought a Samsung LED backlit LCD TV and have been very happy with it.

If you do go the plasma route, remember that the pixels are using phosphor and as a result images can be burned in. Don't leave it on a menu or other non changing image.

Personally, I think that's one of the reasons that plasma has declined; an effective scare tactic campaign about burn in.

Not that I dispute there is potential for it to occur but I don't believe it's the big monster in the closet it's made out to be. Fear can be a powerful motivator/sales tool.

 

[Vintage_Hi-F]

hahahahahahah... Yeah, I know that. However, since I'm not all that interested in 3D, I have no need to go beyond HDMI 1.3. Really, since there's virtually no content that takes care of Deep Color and its auditory equivalent, if you aren't going 3D, you don't need anything beyond HDMI 1.2.

However, your comparison of a PC and a display breaks down pretty quickly when you look at it critically.

Let's break it down:

1. While Moore's Law pretty much means your computer is no longer top of the heap the moment you walk it out of the store into the parking lot, the same doesn't necessarily hold true in regard to displays. Things like processing speed don't, for the most part, play much of a role in a television's performance. Sure, you can add a few extra bells and whistles with that processing power, but that's not the primary function of a display.
2. I never claimed that my current display was the ultimate in technology. However, I still stand by the two things I claimed that plasma sets do much better than LED/LCDs: provide a better picture to off-angle viewers and do much better with deep, rich blacks.
3. The point you make, that technology marches on incessantly, is true, and it's the changes that Panasonic made in their design between the 2009 models and the 2010 models that prompted me to act (for the record, those changes include the anti-glare screen they added and the improved means of handling aging and black levels - the 2009 models had definite problems, but they've been corrected).
4. I've adopted a strategy of figuring out where to spend money and where to incorporate planned obsolescence into my purchasing plans. For instance, while my AVR is good and has good amps, I recognize that it is a receiver..... However, my AVR also has 7.1 analog inputs meaning I can purchase a pre/pro that provides access to the latest HDMI technologies and then use analog outs to provide the analog signal to the amps. Later, when finances allow, I can add amps as needed. When I upgrade my amps, though, I'll be sinking some money into them because that won't really be affected by technology where as the pre/pro side of things will.

So, yeah, while Moore's Law makes a joke of a computer purchase, and while it may affect things like a display, by and large, a display is much more impervious to technological evolution than a computer or a pre/pro is.

It may not effect is as quick but what you're comparing is first gen LED's to 5th and even 6th gen Plasma, not a far comparison at all. The current 2nd and early 3rd gen sets really make the grade. They use many many more led's in there back-lighting system (Sharp claims to use about 4,000-5,000 micro LED's in a 50"set) which allows for a more even image. Also the technology to control all those LED's individually on the fly has improved drastically. We all know how LCD used magnetism to twist and lock the crystals to block the light form the CFL backlights to produce black and unless you bought a top of the heap you kinda got shafted. LED's can be individually dimmed and even shut off in conjugation with the contorting crystals in the display. The "LCD doesn't give you deep blacks" argument hold true less and less with each passing month. Plasma Tv's may be changing very slowly (due in part to more mature tech) but LED tv's improve drastically over a period of just a few months. Unless you've compared a brand new 2011 Plasma to a Brand new 2011 LED (both being on the same level) you're not making it a level field.

 

[Dr Tinear]

We bought a Samsung LED backlit LCD TV and have been very happy with it.

If you do go the plasma route, remember that the pixels are using phosphor and as a result images can be burned in. Don't leave it on a menu or other non changing image.

My 50" Panasonic plasma TV is going on two years in service without a trace of image retention (burn-in). I reduced the brightness settings and tweaked the color balance when I first got the set and have seen no need to adjust it since. The set gets used for broadcast TV viewing, DVD viewing and gaming, none of which has left even a trace of a retained image on the screen, so I've concluded that burn-in is a non-issue on this line of Panasonic plasmas. Screen glare is also a non-issue thanks to a very effective anti-reflection coating.

 

[whoaru99]

My 50" Panasonic plasma TV is going on two years in service without a trace of image retention (burn-in).

To expound on my soapbox a couple posts ago, this strikes at the heart of my point.

Image retention and burn in are two different things. IR = temporary (seconds to a couple minutes). BI = permanent.

Often they're not differentiated in discussion but they are different, quite different.

 

[Phase700b]

Certainly a spirited discussion here for an audio crowd! :yes:

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned, unless I missed it, about plasma screens is the "Floating Blacks" concern. It seems the most often touted benefit of plasma does not remain so. Several major brands of plasma TVs seem to suffer from shifts in internal electrical characteristics that cause the plasma panel to lighten up, reducing effective contrast ratio, and not provide the deep picture experience plasma should provide. Use Google to look up " Panasonic floating blacks". Also, look up "plasma speckles" and plasma "sparkles". It seems to be an issue that may not show up immediately, but after relatively low hours of use. Experts believe it may be due to the heat produced by plasma displays causing internal panel connection deterioration on some panels. Also, many defenders and TV makers say that the problems is "resolved" now on newer TVs. Not according to all the evidence on the net.

And any anti glare coating applied to a plasma panel only serves to further reduce sometimes already dismal brightness. I really wanted to like a Panasonic G25 and some other plasma TVs. Couldn't get over these hurdles. Now, LCD has it's lighting uniformity issues for some models, but a little time spent in research will get you a very good TV picture.

Bottom line. For most people who don't want to pull drapes in the day time, want a bright, clear, and sharp picture, low power consumption with less heat; a good LCD TV with either CCFL or Full Array local dimming LED back light is tops. Some of the mid to higher priced Sony, LG, and Panasonic LCD/LED TVs are very good. They provide stunning picture quality for a decent price.

The back lighting uniformity issues for LCD/LED TVs seem to largely be due to a couple of reasons. Screen size/frame thinness and poor lighting from the "edge lit" LED models. If you think about it, a 50" or larger LCD panel needs a lot of support. Sometimes just the shipping and handling of a TV, whether plasma or LCD, before it gets to you can create an issue especially if it has a very thin frame/bezel around the LCD panel. However, the industry now seems to realize this and is stiffening up frames to help support the LCD panel. And, if a TV arrives in your home after spending time in a cold UPS truck or store warehouse, let it acclimate to room temperature for at lest several hours before plugging it in. Also, there are many CCFL ( Cold Cathode Florescent Lamp) LCD TVs that provide a very good picture. These CCFL TVs have been in use in airports running 24/7 for years. But if you want the increased contrast ratio of an LED-LCD TV, make sure you get one with "Full Array" local dimming for the LED back light. Very deep blacks are produced with such TVs rivaling a plasma.

Lastly, TVs have actually gotten so good in the past 10 years that even a casual owner will notice discrepancies that were either not present or not seen on the old 36" "tube" TV they had. And the technology is still evolving along with market driven cost/benefit trade offs. We all have the resources on the web to do a little research and and also educate ourselves to make a good purchasing decision. A great time to buy a TV!

 

[whoaru99]

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but I don't get the plasma brightness thing. In the situations described, which seem similar to how the CRT TV is set up at my GF's house, I can't see the picture for crap on that either in the afternoons when the sun is shining in the West windows (TV is in SE corner of room). Maybe I'm the odd duck here but who in the heck intently watches a TV show/movie with all the window shades wide open in full daylight? That's like going to the theater and trying to watch a movie with the house lights on full brightness.

 

[Gregoire]

I love my Panasonic Plasma TV, and would buy it again.

The only issue I have is that it interferes with my turntable (which sits right in front of the TV) I get a light hum when the TV and stereo are on at the same time. And yes, I am known to watch the TV with the sound muted while listening to the stereo!

 

[Jon_Logan]

.... and why do they now have a jiggler circuit? ... because when electrons impact the phosphor, some phosphor burns away. I'm not saying one is better than the other (plasma vs. LCD), but to reject that a wear on the phosphor occurs is ludicrious.

A jiggler circuit is there as a screensaver. Burn in is real. I've seen it for myself. Whether or not it being a real problem on modern sets to reduce the duty cycle on a pixel, I don't know. For the set I saw affected, an engineer in that group (a video production group) had to create a transport stream that was a bright white bar that moved slowly horizontally and vertically. It took about an hour to balance (effectively burn the non burned pixels) the screen.

So the physics is there. If there's enough work-arounds to avoid burn in, so be it, but don't say "it's not a problem", or a "red herring".

 

[whoaru99]

So the physics is there. If there's enough work-arounds to avoid burn in, so be it, but don't say "it's not a problem", or a "red herring".

Agreed, but the potential for a problem to develop and one that occurs regularly are two different things in practial matters. This is where the red herring comes in. Could it happen? Sure. Do people regularly have this problem? No, not from what I've seen and read.

As I mentioned recently, my plasma will be 5 years old in January and currently has roughly 5,000 hours in it. Absolutely zero BI and only occasional short lived IR if, for example, I watch something in 4:3 format with bars on each side then watch something in full screen. It's faint, many people may not even notice unless you point it out, and gone in a minute.

 

[Phase700b]

.... and why do they now have a jiggler circuit? ... because when electrons impact the phosphor, some phosphor burns away. I'm not saying one is better than the other (plasma vs. LCD), but to reject that a wear on the phosphor occurs is ludicrious.


So the physics is there. If there's enough work-arounds to avoid burn in, so be it, but don't say "it's not a problem", or a "red herring".

Good points and another concern with burn in and image retention is what the owner uses the TV for and viewing habits. On some other websites, owners who like to use the plasma TV for long periods of time at very high brightness levels have complained of permanent screen burn. Many people seem to want to run their new TV at near maximum brightness and contrast levels which will certainly shorten viewing life if not ruin picture quality. While an owner of either an LCD or plasma may wish to do that, for a plasma it could spell disaster. An owner also may crank up brightness and contrast because of high day time light levels in the room, and it doesn't have to be sun light directly streaming into a south or west facing window. And anyone with game playing kids in a household that like to play games need to be aware of such pitfalls. Mos tnew plasma or LCD TV owners do not realize the benefit and necessity of making TV picture settings such that the TV is not maxxed out.

All the more reason for a prospective TV purchaser to review the needs and want of his or her TV use.

 

[cwall99]

It may not effect is as quick but what you're comparing is first gen LED's to 5th and even 6th gen Plasma, not a far comparison at all. The current 2nd and early 3rd gen sets really make the grade. They use many many more led's in there back-lighting system (Sharp claims to use about 4,000-5,000 micro LED's in a 50"set) which allows for a more even image. Also the technology to control all those LED's individually on the fly has improved drastically.

Go to the store. Look at the displays. Especially off axis. The LED and LCD screens still lose boatloads of color as you move off axis. I was just up at Best Buy last weekend and while my kid was looking at video games, I was wandering along their wall of video. The LCD/LED sets still fade away as you move off axis. Their blacks still aren't nearly as black as plasmas. And I'd be willing to put my 18 month old plasma against any comparably priced and sized non-3D LCD/LED, and I'm pretty darn confident that the picture'd be better.

Saying that the current LCD/LED sets aren't as mature as plasma sets is a silly thing to say. You can only compare what's on the market now, not what will be in two to four years.

 

[cwall99]

Good points and another concern with burn in and image retention is what the owner uses the TV for and viewing habits. On some other websites, owners who like to use the plasma TV for long periods of time at very high brightness levels have complained of permanent screen burn. Many people seem to want to run their new TV at near maximum brightness and contrast levels which will certainly shorten viewing life if not ruin picture quality. While an owner of either an LCD or plasma may wish to do that, for a plasma it could spell disaster. An owner also may crank up brightness and contrast because of high day time light levels in the room, and it doesn't have to be sun light directly streaming into a south or west facing window. And anyone with game playing kids in a household that like to play games need to be aware of such pitfalls. Mos tnew plasma or LCD TV owners do not realize the benefit and necessity of making TV picture settings such that the TV is not maxxed out.

All the more reason for a prospective TV purchaser to review the needs and want of his or her TV use.

Someone earlier in this thread talked about the projected life spans of both plasmas and LCDs being in the neighborhood of 20 years.

Presuming, of course, the broadcast and media technology don't obsolesce them.

Definitely recommend putting your picture into THX mode (if it has it) if you aren't going to spring to have your display professionally calibrated.

I've used the THX mode on my set, and it really makes a nice difference.

 

[Vintage_Hi-F]

Go to the store. Look at the displays. Especially off axis. The LED and LCD screens still lose boatloads of color as you move off axis. I was just up at Best Buy last weekend and while my kid was looking at video games, I was wandering along their wall of video. The LCD/LED sets still fade away as you move off axis. Their blacks still aren't nearly as black as plasmas. And I'd be willing to put my 18 month old plasma against any comparably priced and sized non-3D LCD/LED, and I'm pretty darn confident that the picture'd be better.

I don't know what LED's you were looking at but mine doesn't have the off axis issue (the image looks the same whether I'm driectly in front of it or standing parallel to it) and as far as black levels I've had people ask me if my TV just crapped out in the middle of a movie during a fade to black. Though I don't have a blue light special TV, not all LED sets are created equal (nor are all plasma sets). One issue is calibration most TV at a big box store are just taken out of the box and hung up. The ones in the magnolia department are usually calibrated but they usually just run "HD" cable to them so they still don't look as good. My Sharp equaled the compatible panny plasma (IMO) in PQ and beat it hands down in input variety. Also I would like to state I am not saying plasma is garbage, it offers a great image. What I am saying though, is that it's not the only game in town for getting a great picture anymore (and I'd say it has had serious completion from some CFL sets from way back as well).

Saying that the current LCD/LED sets aren't as mature as plasma sets is a silly thing to say. You can only compare what's on the market now, not what will be in two to four years.

How is it a silly thing to say LED backligting is new tech and it takes time for engineers to utilize new techs full potential. I mean the first gen plasma's didn't look all that hot what with there "screen door" effect, very reflective screens washing out colors, off axis viewing issues, and lets not forget there initial problems with life span. But as time went on those became none issues. Whats so silly about that? Also I said you can't base your assumption that LED is not as good as plasma based on what you saw 18 month ago alone. Not that you have to anticipate what it will look like in 2 years. That would be ridiculous and next to impossible.