DeadRock
Ideas Guy
If only you made sense...wanna take another run at it?
Power conditioners Snake oil?
- Thread starter Carbsandcaps
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I use the PST6 or PST8 on my TVs and the kitchen/family room stereo- my TVs used to look like it was 1966 again (grainy), but once plugged into the Furman strips they became crystal clear.
The main stereo in the living room and the two systems in my office use Furman Elite-15DMi power conditioners to clean up the dirty power and they made I huge difference in mid & high frequencies. Now that my house is running off solar power the voltage fluctuations are gone , the Furmans show 120 volts all the time, they used to fluctuate between 117V and 125 V.
Blue Shadow
Waiting for Vintage Gear from this century
I'm with you on this one. Difference is you have lightning that is not so common in many parts of the country.,
Furman is good stuff. A couple of friends swear by them for their recording studios.
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Well that maybe so, but the last failure of a electronic device, was recently on a perfectly clear day, and it was the OEM provided SMPS of a 13 yr. old 24/7/365 operating VGA to ethernet cable distribution headend unit after my power utility Co. unexpectedly did a load switch and power blipped the grid which always generates a very powerful stressful, or damaging power grid surge/spike rich situation, in which they do on occasion !
I have encountered this many times since moving here in 1989 after a cold snap and the temperature starts warming back up
and the load on the grid becomes reduced, and the power Company desires to adjust the power capacity level back down to keep the grid`s voltage from rising too high with the lessor public demands.
It ain`t only lightning based destructive power blips that cause me to provide the high quality level of power based surge/spike protection that I choose to engage in !
My chosen protection for my high 10`s of thousands of dollars worth of replacement costs of my house`s A/V are not "Snake Oil" !
I`m totally unconcerned what anybody believes in or not about the power protection/conditioning coddling of their house`s electronic/electrical equipment, as my methods have been working quite well for me since starting in 1992 !
An extra layer of safety is a nice thing to have.
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tubelectron
Super Member
I don't know if I can call my KRAFTWERK Unit a "conditioner", since it doesn't provide voltage regulation, but only DC blocking / Isolation / balanced earth connection / RF and spikes filtering / inrush current limitation / differential and overcurrent protection... OK, maybe some sort of !
I decided to design and build it by myself, in a ruggered and classical way. Note that each feature is instant-defeatable, just in case if a problem would occur, or if this or that "awfulingly destroys the tone" for the detractors :
For those who may be interested to go DIY too, here is the schematic - as you can see, it is purely analogue circuits :
And of course, this unit is perfectly silent : no hum, no buzz can be heard from it. It also generates absolutely no magnetic or electrostatic radiations, nor stray fields of any kind.
Is the tone better ? Possibly some days... But for sure, it is not degraded in any way : I can confirm it by the on/defeat facilities for each feature. And obviously, my Hi-Fi gear operates under safer, cleaner supply conditions...
T
I decided to design and build it by myself, in a ruggered and classical way. Note that each feature is instant-defeatable, just in case if a problem would occur, or if this or that "awfulingly destroys the tone" for the detractors :
For those who may be interested to go DIY too, here is the schematic - as you can see, it is purely analogue circuits :
And of course, this unit is perfectly silent : no hum, no buzz can be heard from it. It also generates absolutely no magnetic or electrostatic radiations, nor stray fields of any kind.
Is the tone better ? Possibly some days... But for sure, it is not degraded in any way : I can confirm it by the on/defeat facilities for each feature. And obviously, my Hi-Fi gear operates under safer, cleaner supply conditions...
T
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Keeps my 2 repair benches clear of any of my more modern manufactured electronics needing any repairs !As extra layer of safety is a nice thing to have.
After a cheap assed OEM with little current rated headroom provided SMPS fails from a strong power blip, I just purchase a upgraded inexpensive current/wattage replacement one through Amazon, which afterwards after replacing them, some as long as ten yrs ago. remain still operational today !
All the electronics that these SMPS powered remain perfectly functional after the upgraded SMPS` have been replaced, most remain plugged in and operate 24/7/365.
I have a Monster HTS-3500 MKII in my theater system. I don't know if it makes any difference in performance (I didn't really pay attention to "before and after' performance because I didn't expect any difference). I think it offers some degree of safety. These units also offer cable (coax) filtering and Ethernet filtering. I do remember that routing the cable coax through the Monster did clean up some cable issue a long time ago.
I also bought one of those Monster HTS-2000 "power-strip style" conditioners off of the popular auction site, and it hummed very loudly when I plugged it in. The seller said to "keep it" rather than return it since it was toast. I didn't want to try to fix it, but disassembled it and kept some internals.
Everything about the Monster units seems very high quality. The full-size ones seem to last an eternity, the power-strip sized ones seem to have more problems for whatever reason.
Monster HTS-3500 MKii
I also bought one of those Monster HTS-2000 "power-strip style" conditioners off of the popular auction site, and it hummed very loudly when I plugged it in. The seller said to "keep it" rather than return it since it was toast. I didn't want to try to fix it, but disassembled it and kept some internals.
Everything about the Monster units seems very high quality. The full-size ones seem to last an eternity, the power-strip sized ones seem to have more problems for whatever reason.
Monster HTS-3500 MKii
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
IME computer back up power supplies tend to produce lots of noise on the AC output. While they will allow safe shutdown when AC is lost, I'd use them only with appropriate caution. Attach a scope probe to the AC out of an APC and observe the noise for yourself.
FWIW: I use a Tripp Lite Isobar on a dedicated 20A line for my small signal sources. My power amplifiers are on their own dedicated 20A lines (2).
I’ve got two of these - Panamax 5510 AC Regenerator.
These are really great. They have an isolation transformer in them to connect lower powered stuff to (can’t plug an amp through there). It did clean up my digital, and I didn’t realize it could get cleaner.
Definitely a worthwhile addition, I don’t think the power is particularly bad where I am, the house was built in 1999. But there was a layer of noise there that this removed.
It's super over-engineered, as usual, for your stuff.I don't know if I can call my KRAFTWERK Unit a "conditioner", since it doesn't provide voltage regulation, but only DC blocking / Isolation / balanced earth connection / RF and spikes filtering / inrush current limitation / differential and overcurrent protection... OK, maybe some sort of !
I decided to design and build it by myself, in a ruggered and classical way. Note that each feature is instant-defeatable, just in case if a problem would occur, or if this or that "awfulingly destroys the tone" for the detractors :
For those who may be interested to go DIY too, here is the schematic - as you can see, it is purely analogue circuits :
And of course, this unit is perfectly silent : no hum, no buzz can be heard from it. It also generates absolutely no magnetic or electrostatic radiations, nor stray fields of any kind.
Is the tone better ? Possibly some days... But for sure, it is not degraded in any way : I can confirm it by the on/defeat facilities for each feature. And obviously, my Hi-Fi gear operates under safer, cleaner supply conditions...
T
I go overkill and plug these between the computer's UPS and the wall. You used to be able to pick a 1KV one, reasonably cheap, at an Electronics Surplus store.IME computer back up power supplies tend to produce lots of noise on the AC output. While they will allow safe shutdown when AC is lost, I'd use them only with appropriate caution. Attach a scope probe to the AC out of an APC and observe the noise for yourself.
FWIW: I use a Tripp Lite Isobar on a dedicated 20A line for my small signal sources. My power amplifiers are on their own dedicated 20A lines (2).
Now, there are no longer many Electronic Surplus stores.
[note: modern computer PSUs are not only more powerful but also quieter line noise generators. Boy, those early ones were big and noisy.]
twiiii
Lunatic Member
If you really want to be serious you get a computer grade battery eliminator. That way you are never directly connected to the AC electrical grid. You charge up the batteries of the eliminator and then an invertor creates pure sign wave 120 VAC from the batteries. That way no out side noise gets into your system. You dont have to worry about your house wiring or circuit breaker wiring or the wiring from the Step down transformer on the electrical pole or the noise getting on the 10,000 volt line at the top of your power poles.
Or I guess you could get a Genrac or Cumins back up power generator that works off of diesel, Propane or natural gas that can feed your system all the time and your house with a switch over box when the electrical serice from your local electric company fails. I had Onan's, which was Cummins, in my Motor homes and they provided great noise free power to the coach when boon docking or at rallys. First coach had a 8K genset and the second coach a 12k genset. The newer ones are much quieter than they were when I bought mine in the early 2000's. I assume all of them have water proof noise cancelling hush boxes now days to keep the neighbors happy. . You just push a button to start the genset motor driving the alternator when you need it and give the unit a minute or two to stabilize and you are ready to go.
I guess you could do the same thing with solar panels now days and that way you wouldn't need to worry about noise. But you have to have enough battery capacity to allow night time operation while the sun is down. A Tesla Power Wall for instance.
Or I guess you could get a Genrac or Cumins back up power generator that works off of diesel, Propane or natural gas that can feed your system all the time and your house with a switch over box when the electrical serice from your local electric company fails. I had Onan's, which was Cummins, in my Motor homes and they provided great noise free power to the coach when boon docking or at rallys. First coach had a 8K genset and the second coach a 12k genset. The newer ones are much quieter than they were when I bought mine in the early 2000's. I assume all of them have water proof noise cancelling hush boxes now days to keep the neighbors happy. . You just push a button to start the genset motor driving the alternator when you need it and give the unit a minute or two to stabilize and you are ready to go.
I guess you could do the same thing with solar panels now days and that way you wouldn't need to worry about noise. But you have to have enough battery capacity to allow night time operation while the sun is down. A Tesla Power Wall for instance.
Funny show. My wife loves British TV and we’ve seen all of the Keeping Up Appearances episodes. I recall Hyacinth was admonishing her husband Richard for going to do work in the yard without a tie, in case the neighbors see him.
My take on power conditioners? Most electric service is clean or enough so that any “noise” is not getting past the DC rectifier. If you live in an apartment building where there may be dozens of refrigerators, washers, and other common noise generators, you may benefit from a conditioner. Then again, there is still not likely a major noise issue.
The way the units specifically made for audio are marketed, I think they’re teetering on snake oil. Promises of spectacular audio improvements are not likely unless you have a gross power issue that the power company is likely to repair if brought to their attention. A power conditioner can help clean up dirty mains, but it won’t fix what isn’t broken.
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
With the advent of CFLs and later LED lighting, and computer`s with their integral SMPS proliferation, plus the commonly sharing of your 240 v output feeding drop transformers with 2 or 3 neighbors back feeding their inhouse generated powerline noise along with your house`s own self created electrical noise, electrical noise mitigation (quality filtering) at the A/V equipment`s endpoints can be beneficial more often than commonly realized, IMO/E !
And in my case, of all my chosen multiple power/ethernet cable protection/conditioning products were never marketed with Audiophile notion claims, just were chosen by me because of their multi-decades in existent HQ track record proven power products that continue soldiering along doing what their supposed to do (my original made in USA Panamax purchased in 1995 RM Max 1000 surge/spike/noise filtering sequencer, is still functioning perfectly in this room with multiple laptops and tower computers and LED lighting AC power cleaning up/protecting the 1987 purchased Mc. C-31V preamp and purchased used in 1995 Crown DC-300 Series II power amp.
I know for a fact that my house`s electrical distributed system is very dirty, starting with the use of tower computers in 1995, and later my total re-lamping my house CFLs and yrs. later converting over to LED lighting and their negative noise interference effect on my house`s X-10 power line communication based controller systems, and confirmed with my purchased some yrs. back (Green Wave brand Broadband EMI meter) plug in power line noise sniffer tester.
AC mains is commonly more dirtier and spike rich than you can imagine, how much negative effect it has on your equipment can vary from A/V equipment`s sensitivity and individual house`s situation.
I prefer to reasonably mitigate it myself, whether or not I can see or hear it`s benefits on my house`s A/V electronics, call it piece of mind, if you will, as I have never exclaimed to myself, or on A/K, any perceived A/V quality improvement by its inclusion !
I didn`t need to, as the built in power line filtering capability that came with my chosen surge/spike protection that in itself was more important to me in my selection of the products that I chose.
I have used line AC power, sometimes with regular power strips and sometimes with surge protectors, for decades and have never once experienced any audible audio problem due to any characteristics of the line power.
I don't know if there is actually any effect on the components from dirty power. Maybe most of the them use pretty good power supplies that are cleaning it up before it gets to the audio parts. But so much of audio is inherently imprecise that to me any mostly inaudible distortion from dirty line power is insignificant.
I've heard enough anecdotes to know it can happen, but I am very lucky to never have had a failure from a brownout, blackout, or surge either. In fact I can't think of anything that ever failed due to a power surge.
So I am in the "mostly snake oil" camp.
I remember the first time I was shopping for audio and I saw a power conditioner priced in the high $hundreds. I thought it was an amp based on the "500 watts" label, meters and otherwise blank front panel, and was astounded at the price when the salesman explained what it was. While I know a lot of members have no qualms about expense and that's perfectly ok, that is more than I paid for any one of the components I would be protecting. So I will pass on power conditioning devices.
I don't know if there is actually any effect on the components from dirty power. Maybe most of the them use pretty good power supplies that are cleaning it up before it gets to the audio parts. But so much of audio is inherently imprecise that to me any mostly inaudible distortion from dirty line power is insignificant.
I've heard enough anecdotes to know it can happen, but I am very lucky to never have had a failure from a brownout, blackout, or surge either. In fact I can't think of anything that ever failed due to a power surge.
So I am in the "mostly snake oil" camp.
I remember the first time I was shopping for audio and I saw a power conditioner priced in the high $hundreds. I thought it was an amp based on the "500 watts" label, meters and otherwise blank front panel, and was astounded at the price when the salesman explained what it was. While I know a lot of members have no qualms about expense and that's perfectly ok, that is more than I paid for any one of the components I would be protecting. So I will pass on power conditioning devices.
One functional advantage for me has been the trigger and switched/unswitched outlets. The HTS-3500 mkii trigger input can handle from 3 to 30 volts and controls the power state of the unswitched outlets. I had a lot of equipment in my home theater system and the Monster unit allowed me to control what was on only when the AV preamp was on, and which devices were on all the time, and which outlets (power amp) were delayed switched with the "timed" outlets. Each outlet type (video, cd, power amp, etc.) is labeled to imply it has it's own filtering specific to each device type (no idea if there are significant differences between the outlets).
There are pass-through filters for coax and phone jacks (!)
-- the coax filter did help with a cable issue a long time ago (too long ago for me to remember, I don't think I am using the filter currently).
Back in the day when these were popular, I remember people saying that Panamax had better performance than Monster. The Monster units look a lot better than Panamax to my eye, and are very well built. I really don't know if either one is better or worse, but Panamax used to be talked up as better back then.
This is what the back of the HTS-3500 mkii looks like: switched/unswitched/timed outlets -- on the right coax filters, trigger, and phone jack filters
This top view shows the text discussing the implied difference in filtering and switching for the various outlet types:
There are pass-through filters for coax and phone jacks (!)
-- the coax filter did help with a cable issue a long time ago (too long ago for me to remember, I don't think I am using the filter currently).Back in the day when these were popular, I remember people saying that Panamax had better performance than Monster. The Monster units look a lot better than Panamax to my eye, and are very well built. I really don't know if either one is better or worse, but Panamax used to be talked up as better back then.
This is what the back of the HTS-3500 mkii looks like: switched/unswitched/timed outlets -- on the right coax filters, trigger, and phone jack filters
This top view shows the text discussing the implied difference in filtering and switching for the various outlet types:
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Semanon
Super Member
Keeps away extraterrestrials, too. I haven’t seen one of them since I plugged in my Furman!I use a Furman P-1800 PF R . Does it change anything? No idea. But nothing has blown up since I've been using it.