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Presence, Realism, Palpable sound amplifiers

Lavane said:
I agree with an amp using EL-84/6BQ5 power tubes. Out of all my amps my Dynakit clone of the ST-35 sounds the best. The output transformers are really nice and those tubes in general tend to sound pretty sweet. Even in my old modified Magnavox 9303 EL-84 PP amp out of an old console and a small EL-84 single ended amp I built on the cheap sounds good. I like my other amps, but there is something about the EL-84 that gets it right.
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That sounds convincing... As far as I read through many reviews regarding EL84 amps, reviewers mentioned their "Life-like" sound signature. I did quick research for ST-35, then only the positive reviews I could found. Only the thing hooked me was that someone said ST-35 was the warmest sounding in his shootout with several EL84 amps. Do you agree with his statement?
 
zackthedog said:
I have a good friend in Florida, a musician. He has a pair of Williamsons I built for him, and he loves them, but twice now he's commented on PP EL84 amps he's heard--the little Black Ice integrated he heard at the Florida Audio Expo ("It rocked!") and just this weekend at the Audio Note UK shop in Miami. Among other instruments he plays acoustic bass, and he's VERY fussy about getting the bass right in an audio system.
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Wow, another supportive story! So I guess he might have tried AudioNote OTO that I have been dreaming of. Then he admires PP EL84... I will definitely try to gather some information about them!
 
If we knew your whereabouts there might be a local AK’er that could share with you. If you were near me you could come hear several types of amps.
 
TriodeLuvr said:
but gapped OPTs in larger amps are very limited. For example, to be capable of 25W at 20Hz (just to use round numbers), the OPTs in a 211 or 845 SET would need to be the size of cinder blocks.

The bottom line is that if you want at least 15W/CH and flat response to the lowest frequency, push-pull is the only way to get there at any reasonable cost.

Jack
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Sounds like you nailed it. As I am in the "Low wattage amp-High efficiency speakers" camp for now, I don't necessarily need more than 20w/ch aside from more weighty sound. So NO Big boys. If I could find a great EL84 SEP that is under that wattage limit I would love to give it a shot, or introduce PP EL84 like ST-35 seems promising!
 
Ken Boyd said:
I will add my two cents all the amp in the world is dependent on what you feed it so when you say amp you need to consider the preamp as well as I find that very important to what your end up with coming out in the end. A really good preamp starts the ball rolling, and sometimes integrated amps seem to just think of the front end as something that is not all that important, as the customers are always looking at the wattage verse cost as the factor in buying. A great preamp will make a great amp sound great, but a poor preamp will make the best amp sound just about as bad as the bad amp.

Just something to add to the confusion.
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Yes, that makes a lot of sense.
 
tucky said:
Only the thing hooked me was that someone said ST-35 was the warmest sounding in his shootout with several EL84 amps. Do you agree with his statement?
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I don't agree with it, and I performed factory authorized service for Dynaco in the '70s. I had the chance back then to audition the ST-35 repeatedly and to compare it with other amplifiers and many different speakers. The reason for such variety is that I also performed factory authorized service for Acoustic Research, Harman Kardon, Scott, Fisher, and others. Later in that decade I worked with almost every type of solid state gear available - Pioneer, Sansui, Yamaha, B&O, Phase Linear, Crown, etc., etc. There could be many reasons why someone might refer to the ST-35 as warm, including the simple fact it's now more than 50 years old and subject to the ravages of time if not properly restored. That's another issue, because well-meaning owners and techs often use parts that have no place in an amplifier whose best feature is its transparency and detail. There are just too many misconceptions about cause and effect, as well as parts quality and the value (or not) of the expensive "top shelf" components. I personally think you can't go wrong with the ST-35, as long as the speakers and listening habits are compatible with this power level.

Jack
 
tucky said:
That sounds convincing... As far as I read through many reviews regarding EL84 amps, reviewers mentioned their "Life-like" sound signature. I did quick research for ST-35, then only the positive reviews I could found. Only the thing hooked me was that someone said ST-35 was the warmest sounding in his shootout with several EL84 amps. Do you agree with his statement?
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I don't know about warm, but it does seem to get a lot of things right.
The output transformers get a lot of praise and I can see why.
There are several different things that can be done to them also.
There is a board available that replaces the big cap can. It has the power supply, and David Gillespie's trade marked EFB, (efficient head back circuit), on it along with a bias adjustment for each of the two pairs of EL-84's. It's a nice update to the amp. Just scroll down on that page for the ST-35 boards
This really does take this amp to the next level.
I had bought a bias kit for mine and replaced the 50 ohm resistor with a 62 ohm choke. The bias kit allows for adjustment for each power tube.
If I were to do it over I would go with the board kit from Tronola.
But even in it's stock form the ST-35 sounds great.
 
TriodeLuvr said:
I don't agree with it, and I performed factory authorized service for Dynaco in the '70s. I had the chance back then to audition the ST-35 repeatedly and to compare it with other amplifiers and many different speakers. The reason for such variety is that I also performed factory authorized service for Acoustic Research, Harman Kardon, Scott, Fisher, and others. Later in that decade I worked with almost every type of solid state gear available - Pioneer, Sansui, Yamaha, B&O, Phase Linear, Crown, etc., etc. There could be many reasons why someone might refer to the ST-35 as warm, including the simple fact it's now more than 50 years old and subject to the ravages of time if not properly restored. That's another issue, because well-meaning owners and techs often use parts that have no place in an amplifier whose best feature is its transparency and detail. There are just too many misconceptions about cause and effect, as well as parts quality and the value (or not) of the expensive "top shelf" components. I personally think you can't go wrong with the ST-35, as long as the speakers and listening habits are compatible with this power level.

Jack
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True, if it's sounding warm, something is wrong with the amp.
I'm using speakers rated at 93db efficiency with my ST-35 and it gets plenty loud.
 
Selmerdave said:
I have a high-quality SS system and it does many things well but I would not include presence, realisim or palpability among its strengths, it tends to produce a very clear and clean rendering of the music as though it were inside an immaculate glass box, but not in the room.

I think both SET and PP can do that well, with high-quality examples of each paired to appropriate speakers. The imaging side of it is easier with smaller driver sizes, which favors higher-power PP amps (15-50W), at the expense of tonal accuracy and scale to some degree. Larger drivers do tonal accuracy better, IMO, and have a better chance of being more efficient.

My personal vote would be for a set of Altec 604s, which should be doable within that budget, but I'm probably biased there. Low driver count, strong magnets and high efficiency would be my priorities.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts. As I mentioned in the reply to Openly, I wanted to swear on an amp I can rely on. But now I realized that high-power SETs seem not to be realistic in my budget. Hence, I may go with Speakers first route(SET friendly one) then see what happens when they are combined with R300. Most likely I was to end up with EL84 PP amps though, since you and me believe that SS amp would not be able to show the presence as well as Tubes do.
 
Lavane said:
I don't know about warm, but it does seem to get a lot of things right.
The output transformers get a lot of praise and I can see why.
There are several different things that can be done to them also.
There is a board available that replaces the big cap can. It has the power supply, and David Gillespie's trade marked EFB, (efficient head back circuit), on it along with a bias adjustment for each of the two pairs of EL-84's. It's a nice update to the amp. Just scroll down on that page for the ST-35 boards
This really does take this amp to the next level.
I had bought a bias kit for mine and replaced the 50 ohm resistor with a 62 ohm choke. The bias kit allows for adjustment for each power tube.
If I were to do it over I would go with the board kit from Tronola.
But even in it's stock form the ST-35 sounds great.
Click to expand...
Mine is stock except for cap replacement and warm isn't what it sounds like to me either. Sweet maybe, lifelike certainly!.
 
Ken Boyd said:
If I were looking for a good sounding set up on your budget, I would go for the pair of Cary Six packs for sale on Audiomart US and then pair it with a seperate preamp, the Cary SLP 98 on the same site. I think the two would pair up very nicely and right in your budget just a bit more included the shipping cost.

But so much is depended on personal taste and circumstances.
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Totally. I am always eager to go with separates if budget allowed, and your suggestion is very attractive for me. How would you describe the sound of its combo? just briefly.
 
tucky said:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. As I mentioned in the reply to Openly, I wanted to swear on an amp I can rely on. But now I realized that high-power SETs seem not to be realistic in my budget. Hence, I may go with Speakers first route(SET friendly one) then see what happens when they are combined with R300. Most likely I was to end up with EL84 PP amps though, since you and me believe that SS amp would not be able to show the presence as well as Tubes do.
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I built 300B SET amp. Acually it's my second one. I took the old one apart and built another. It cost me more to build than my ST-35 did.
I like it, but my PP amps, especially the ST-35 gets used more.
I just don't have the right speakers yet for the 300B SET amp to set it up for anything more than near field listening.
 
Bicyclist said:
I always prefer push pull el84s and an st35 is my favorite with the right preamp.
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Much appreciated. That's a great point of view and story! Some questions came up with my mind. What do you think is the most important aspect should I check when I choose a preamp to pair with ST35?
 
Lavane said:
I don't know about warm, but it does seem to get a lot of things right.
The output transformers get a lot of praise and I can see why.
There are several different things that can be done to them also.
There is a board available that replaces the big cap can. It has the power supply, and David Gillespie's trade marked EFB, (efficient head back circuit), on it along with a bias adjustment for each of the two pairs of EL-84's. It's a nice update to the amp. Just scroll down on that page for the ST-35 boards
This really does take this amp to the next level.
I had bought a bias kit for mine and replaced the 50 ohm resistor with a 62 ohm choke. The bias kit allows for adjustment for each power tube.
If I were to do it over I would go with the board kit from Tronola.
But even in it's stock form the ST-35 sounds great.
Click to expand...
All noted! Appreciated.
 
tucky said:
Much appreciated. That's a great point of view and story! Some questions came up with my mind. What do you think is the most important aspect should I check when I choose a preamp to pair with ST35?
Click to expand...
Something that doesn't color the sound too much. I have a dynaco pas2 and it is working well but it doesn't sound as good to me as the hafler dh100 solid state unit I also use with the stereo35. I just think the st35 deserves the best you can give it. Honestly I don't mind the pas2 and if it's all I had I'd be fine with it. Somehow though it just slightly warms up whatever is behind it and I'd rather not have that if possible.
 
Coming late to this thread, and speaking as a big 6BQ5 fan, I'd like to suggest the Mullard 5-20 circuit. If you'd consider self building, Mullard provides full build instructions. I've been listening to my pair over the last few days and they really get me to the music. The Mullard circuit is here: http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-003d.htm

If you'd like to go the 6BQ5 kit route, I seriously recommend the Audio Note clone boards that are available from Chinese sellers. The assembly manual is also available: https://ankaudiokits.com/ankmanuals/L1 EL84 V2 Version 2.02.pdf. If you go that route note that there are some errors on the clone board, so follow the actual AN schematic for component values.
 
Bicyclist said:
Something that doesn't color the sound too much. I have a dynaco pas2 and it is working well but it doesn't sound as good to me as the hafler dh100 solid state unit I also use with the stereo35. I just think the st35 deserves the best you can give it. Honestly I don't mind the pas2 and if it's all I had I'd be fine with it. Somehow though it just slightly warms up whatever is behind it and I'd rather not have that if possible.
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That's great to know. It seems that Lab12 Pre1 or Rogue Audio RH-5 would matches ST35 well.
 
The Elekit TU-8550 preamp looks interesting. It claims to be all-tube, unlike the integrated amps that use a solid state phono section. Wish I had a copy of the schematic, just to analyze the features better.

Jack
 
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