Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

[guest110]

Vince,

Thanks for the interesting thread, unfortunately I didn't find it before purchasing Tergi-kleen. I haven't used it yet but wanted your feedback on the product.The msds sheet says it's Tergitol 15-S-3 and -9 and I believe they recommend 10-20 drops per gallon of distilled water. Should I use this as I would a straight Tergitol to make your cleaning mix?

In addition, what are your thoughts on steaming cleaning before the enzymatic cleaning for dirty vinyl ?

Aye, Captain, that sounds like a good product and you can use it in place of Triton just fine. To be honest, I have no experience with steam cleaning of vinyl. I always avoided it because I noticed even slightly hot water can warp records. On one hand, it might help sterilize the surface and solubilize fats, on the other it might denature proteins or melt contaminants onto the surface. I have no idea, maybe others can chime in. Enzymatic treatments work at room temperature and are safe and specific so that is what I've used most.


whoa...$25 for 30 ml of that product? I should start selling my own "Vinyl-Kleen"!

 

[Djcoolray]

In Part One of the example using Dawn as the liquid dish washing agent was the wrong choice. It contains chemicals and alcohol. A biodegradable dish washing liquid without phosphates or sulfates diluted with distilled water has no residual effects on vinyl. But the point of static charge being an inherent problem of turntable design can be taken care of with a simple cork turntable mat.

 

[CaptainICE]

Aye, Captain, that sounds like a good product and you can use it in place of Triton just fine. To be honest, I have no experience with steam cleaning of vinyl. I always avoided it because I noticed even slightly hot water can warp records. On one hand, it might help sterilize the surface and solubilize fats, on the other it might denature proteins or melt contaminants onto the surface. I have no idea, maybe others can chime in. Enzymatic treatments work at room temperature and are safe and specific so that is what I've used most.


whoa...$25 for 30 ml of that product? I should start selling my own "Vinyl-Kleen"!

Yo matey, yes you should get in the "Vinyl-Kleen"! business Thanks for the reply, I see your webpage "Dr. Vince" has the formula for Enzymatic elixir, do you list anywhere all the cleaning variants that can be used i.e. Tergitol 15-S- ?, Triton X-100, NP-??.. just trying to get info in one place.

As far as steam cleaning goes, from what I have read in other sources most haven't experienced warping as they try to keep the nozzle a safe distance from the vinyl to not use the hottest steam close to the tip. I was more concerned with casing contaminants to adhere to the surface, as you mentioned.

 

[AvFan]

I'm sure its somewhere back in these twenty pages but how much alcohol (by percentage) do I add to the 10% Triton mix to keep it from growing things? It took the 10% solution about three weeks unrefrigerated to begin growing little black wisps. I'd rather not refrigerate the 10% solution since I want to keep all my cleaning items in one location. FYI the Triton solution and the CanFab3D MKIII RCM are a winning combo. I now have three dozen nice quiet records that are in new MFSL sleeves.

 

[guest110]

I'm sure its somewhere back in these twenty pages but how much alcohol (by percentage) do I add to the 10% Triton mix to keep it from growing things? It took the 10% solution about three weeks unrefrigerated to begin growing little black wisps. I'd rather not refrigerate the 10% solution since I want to keep all my cleaning items in one location. FYI the Triton solution and the CanFab3D MKIII RCM are a winning combo. I now have three dozen nice quiet records that are in new MFSL sleeves.

If you are having issues, you should make your 10% solution fresh each time, add a quat, or keep it in the fridge. While the <15% IPA helps, you really need >50% isopropanol to keep things sterile. So another option is to make a stock with 40% triton and 60% IPA (then dilute it in water later accordingly). I don't do this, but I make solutions using sterile water and glassware so I don't have these issues. I realize not everyone has an autoclave, so it is probably safest at home to make fresh. If you know how much you need for an average batch, just dissolve that amount (e.g. two drops) of the 100% Triton in 50% IPA, then dilute out to your working concentration (thus skipping the need for a 10% solution). This is similar to using it like dish soap, except you have the initial step of solubilizing the Triton (done in alcohol so you don't have to wait overnight). The original purpose of the 10% solution is to make it easy to work with since the 100% can be difficult due to it's high viscosity and reluctance to disperse in water. But you certainly don't want to employ it if you can't use it up before stuff grows in it.

Another tip to keep all your solutions lasting longer is to boil the distilled water and to pre-rinse glassware with 95% IPA before you use them.

 

[AvFan]

Thanks, Vince. What is a commonly available "quat" ( like I know what a quat is!).

 

[guest110]

Thanks, Vince. What is a commonly available "quat" ( like I know what a quat is!).

"Quat" is short for quaternary ammonium cation. I mentioned several previously in this thread. For our use, we want the ones with long alkyl chains (like our detergent). They have antimicrobial properties but are also antistats (since the world is negatively charged and the quat is positively charged - also why we don't want to use dishsoap detergents which are usually SDS, which is negatively charged and "pro-stat"). The one I mostly use is Behentrimonium Chloride which comes as a waxy solid from beauty supply shops (they use it for DIY hair conditioners). It has to be dissolved in hot water and then can be added to make a 10% Triton/1% Behentrimonium stock solution. (note this is weight to volume so 1 gm in 100 ml is a 1% solution). Another similar quat that is widely used and you may be able to find is Stearalkonium Chloride. Because of their use in cosmetics and hair products (even eye drops, I believe), these quats have been extensively tested and are relatively safe. They are the main ingredient is commercially available "record conditioners" and "antistatic treatments" or "glides". We can use them to get the double benefit of preserving our detergent solution while providing antistatic treatment. Damn useful!

 

[kceateva]

now I'm on the hunt for some eye drops.

 

[guest110]

now I'm on the hunt for some eye drops.

In a pinch, you can try a hypoallergenic hair conditioner like the "Free and Clear" product. I haven't used these, but there are many that are mostly quat with little else. ACL also makes a series of "staticides" that may also work (http://www.aclstaticide.com/antistatic_coatings.html). They are available on Amazon, but unfortunately, they are not very upfront about their ingredients. Perhaps someone can contact them.

 

[AvFan]

Thanks for the lead on Free and Clear. A google search revealed its ingredients: Purified Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Hydrogenated Polydecene, 1,3 Propanediol, Distearoylethyl Dimonium Chloride, Glycerin, Ceteareth 20, Panthenol, Arginine, Caprylyl Glycol. I'd bet the water and alcohol make up the bulk of the volume but are any of these other ingredients a quat? Do you see any red flags on these ingredients when mixed with the 10% Triton and used to clean records? Do you think it will preserve the 10% Triton? FYI a 12oz bottle of this stuff is available at Walgreens (and probably other major chain drug stores) for $10.

In a pinch, you can try a hypoallergenic hair conditioner like the "Free and Clear" product. I haven't used these, but there are many that are mostly quat with little else. ACL also makes a series of "staticides" that may also work (http://www.aclstaticide.com/antistatic_coatings.html). They are available on Amazon, but unfortunately, they are not very upfront about their ingredients. Perhaps someone can contact them.

 

[guest110]

Yes, that product is a mixture of synthetic polymer moisturizers that are neutral (mostly alcohols and polyethyleneesthers) and a quat (Distearoylethyl Dimonium Chloride). The quat and the Caprylyl glycol are antimicrobials. I just don't know the relative amounts in the mix, but we ideally want about a 10:1 or 20:1 ratio of Triton to quat. I don't see any red flags using this mix as everything is water soluble and should rinse away. For $10, it's worth a try to mix up a batch with Triton and see what happens. Definately let us know what you find!

 

[AvFan]

I'm not sure where Whole Foods markets are located around the country but they have a "Fragrance Free Conditioner" that lists behentrimonium chloride as the second ingredient behind water. I bet water makes up 75% or more of this stuff. Here is the full list of ingredients: Aqua (water), behentrimonium chloride, glyceryl stearate, gluconolactone, sodium benzoate, phenethyl alcohol, glyceryl caprylate, polysorbate 60, cetearyl alcohol, glycerin, sodium citrate, stearyldimoniumhydroxypropyllaurylglucosides chloride, aloe barbadensis, panthenol, tocopherol (vitamin e), matricaria recutita (chamomile flower extract). I suspect my records would be nice and calm since it has chamomile!

I wonder if I could boil off the water in the conditioner on the stove or use a food dehydrator to slowly get rid of the water?

 

[kceateva]

if anyone finds somthing that works links please.

 

[guest110]

I'm not sure where Whole Foods markets are located around the country but they have a "Fragrance Free Conditioner" that lists behentrimonium chloride as the second ingredient behind water. I bet water makes up 75% or more of this stuff. Here is the full list of ingredients: Aqua (water), behentrimonium chloride, glyceryl stearate, gluconolactone, sodium benzoate, phenethyl alcohol, glyceryl caprylate, polysorbate 60, cetearyl alcohol, glycerin, sodium citrate, stearyldimoniumhydroxypropyllaurylglucosides chloride, aloe barbadensis, panthenol, tocopherol (vitamin e), matricaria recutita (chamomile flower extract). I suspect my records would be nice and calm since it has chamomile!

I wonder if I could boil off the water in the conditioner on the stove or use a food dehydrator to slowly get rid of the water?

No, don't boil it as that degrades the ingredients. You will be adding water to make your stock anyways. Without contacting the manufacturer, I would assume it is 25% quat. In that case, you would add 10 ml Triton, 4 ml FF Conditioner, and 86 ml water to make your 10% Triton/1% quat mix.

I'm not that thrilled with all the extra ingredients, but it should work. I did find pure behentrimonium chloride on Amazon ($6.90 for 4.4 oz of pellets - enough for years of batches). Keep in mind you need hot water to dissolve this stuff.In this case, a 10% stock is 10gms in 100ml of water. This can be kept at room temp without any microbial growth.

 

[Wildcat]

@Vince1 I have made the basic cleaner with the Tergitol and IPA, and find that it cleans just as well as the commercial cleaners, but at a far lower cost. So I'm pleased with it in that respect! I have plenty here to share with pals, so part of the lifetime supply won't go to waste.

Question: can this same formula, perhaps diluted further, be used for ultrasonic cleaning? I don't recall seeing that mentioned earlier in the thread, but I am moving beyond vacuums to ultrasonic cleaning. Without a rinse cycle, I am thinking the solution per gallon of water should be more diluted.

 

[ripblade]

Question: can this same formula, perhaps diluted further, be used for ultrasonic cleaning?

The Tergitol can...I know since I've done it. Can't speak for the alcohol, though. Be aware that the U/S cleaning will vapourize some of the cleaning solution. I know this from standing over the tank watching the record spin...after a few minutes my glasses are fogged with the Terg. If you want to try the alcohol, don't smoke near the tank!

 

[Wildcat]

No smoking at Casa Wildcat, but maybe I should use gin and vermouth in the cleaning solution. Then at least I could get a buzz from it.

 

[guest110]

Yes, the same formula can be used in an ultrasonic bath cleaner. You really don't need the IPA though since the record is soaking in the fluid and dispersion is not an issue (I guess this is device specific though, I've seen different configurations). The dilution definitely depends on whether you are following with a water rinse or not. Full strength if yes, at least 10-fold more dilute if not. However, the detergent loses it's effectiveness when too dilute (micelles don't form....which is why there is something called a "critical micelle concentration"). There's no need to leave excess detergent behind on the record, why not just do a quick dip or spray with distilled water before drying? I say this because the detergent micelles are what are holding some of the contaminants (especially the oils)....you want to get rid of these, not dry them back on the record.

 

[drknstrmyknight]

I use 0.25 part of Tergitol 15-S-3 and 0.25 parts of Tergitol 15-S-9 per 100 parts of distilled water
This is the Canadian Conservation Institute's recipe and similar to the Library of Congress's .05 solution of Tergitol 15-S-7 deionized water.

 

[Wildcat]

Yes, the same formula can be used in an ultrasonic bath cleaner. You really don't need the IPA though since the record is soaking in the fluid and dispersion is not an issue (I guess this is device specific though, I've seen different configurations). The dilution definitely depends on whether you are following with a water rinse or not. Full strength if yes, at least 10-fold more dilute if not. However, the detergent loses it's effectiveness when too dilute (micelles don't form....which is why there is something called a "critical micelle concentration"). There's no need to leave excess detergent behind on the record, why not just do a quick dip or spray with distilled water before drying? I say this because the detergent micelles are what are holding some of the contaminants (especially the oils)....you want to get rid of these, not dry them back on the record.

For some ultrasonic formulas I've seen, it's more a matter of having something to reduce surface tension, than to use a detergent. And I've seen one where a small amount of IPA is used to break down greasy fingerprints.

Interesting how this all works!