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Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

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Vince1 said:
For our use, were looking for quaternary ammonium compounds with long alkyl chains whether they be mono- or di-esters, whether it is a Nitrate or Chloride salt, or whether the chain is Cetyldimethylbenzyl, Distearyl dimethyl, Steramindopropyldimethyl, or even Hydroxyethyldimethyloxooctadecylaminopropyl.
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Vince1 said:
Let's not make it complicated.
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I just couldn't resist Vince.

But seriously, you are doing a very good service to this community with this thread.
 
GoBlues said:
I just couldn't resist Vince.

But seriously, you are doing a very good service to this community with this thread.
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Those quats are all paints you can brush with, doesn't matter which color, they are all good. Their names might be complicated, but their use is free and easy!
 
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Funny. I just returned from a business trip where I listened to the audio book "The Martian" during the entire trip. Must be the hangover effect.
 
Vince1 said:
....... Sometimes the oil contamination is severe, they can be combined with proteins or sugars, are tightly bound, and they need to be broken down in order to get them completely solubilized. This is why you can sometimes still see fingerprints after washing records. Dirty fingerprints really present a problem as they attract further contamination (both things that stick to the oils and things that feed on the organic contaminants). The older they are, the worse they get. Enzymatic treatment breaks these down to smaller components that can be more easily solubilized by the detergent or solvent. Much can be avoided simply by washing hands before handling records and sleeves but people are generally lazy in this regard, so we need to have tools to deal with it.
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After reading this I visualize some stoner eating Doritos while listening to the Grateful Dead LP's I found in a thrift store.
 
JamVal said:
After reading this I visualize some stoner eating Doritos while listening to the Grateful Dead LP's I found in a thrift store.
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LOL. I think one out of 5 Van Halen records you find in L.A. has cocaine residue on it. Paint splatter is the one I'll never understand.
 
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Vince1 said:
Captain, the buffer is optional. It's purpose is to keep a neutral environment and to help stop the enzymatic reaction during the wash. The EDTA in the buffer binds Calcium, Iron, and Magnesium ions that are required for activity and often the main mineral components of tap water. I have used the protocol without buffer and it works just fine. If you want to use a buffer, HEPES/EDTA, Tris-acetate-EDTA (TAE) and MOPS-EDTA are all good substitutes, but stay away from any phosphate based buffers. If you were to buy one component, I would skip the buffer, buy some EDTA and include it with the Triton wash solution at a concentration anywhere from 1 to 10 mM (1 gm EDTA per Liter of wash solution is about 3.4 mM, which is a good starting point) . This will help with mineral deposit removal and also disrupt ionic interactions among bound contaminants. Though very useful, I did not include it in the Triton mixes described above as people wanted the simplest mix with the fewest ingredients. Including it makes your wash solution that much better. A "Tweak" if you will, much like adding a Quat. Hence, my "Ultimate Wash Solution" is:
Triton (0.5%), EDTA (5 mM), and Behentriammonium Chloride (0.05%) and, occasionally, 5% IPA.
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Is this the EDTA your speaking of? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005VEDTEO?keywords=EDTA&qid=1455313032&ref_=sr_1_7&sr=8-7
 
CaptainICE said:
Is this the EDTA your speaking of? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005VEDTEO?keywords=EDTA&qid=1455313032&ref_=sr_1_7&sr=8-7
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Yup, the tetrasodium salt is the easiest to work with. It's a small tweak, but it helps. It also aids in stabilizing other components from breakdown (why it is often used as a preservative in foods, cosmetics, shampoo, and other formulations). Don't include in enzyme digestions though...it inhibits their action as it sequesters the cations necessary for their activity.
 
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Vince1 said:
We're cleaning records here, not formulating pharmaceuticals.
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My partner a clinical pharmacist just walked into the room while I was reading the above post,
she thought it typical of the record crowd and gave me knowing smile.
 
Vince1 said:
Let's not make it complicated. We're cleaning records here, not formulating pharmaceuticals. Every record varies in the amount of grime it holds and there is a huge range of effective detergent concentrations that will work. We are also using very small amounts, typically diluting these stocks 100-fold or more in working solutions and everybody is using different purity reagents. Recipes need to be easy if we are to convince people to change their routines. Whether you add 5 gms to 105 mls or to 90 mls won't make a difference in the record cleaning. This is why I have tried to give ranges of concentrations for ingredients. Just be consistent and do the same thing that works each time and your good. Kind of like cooking where 1 cup can be heaping and another a little short of rim, the cake still taste great! This is the Art. The Science is in the reagents we choose to use based on their properties, their synergy with each other, and their interactions with the vinyl record.
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Arthur Smith said:
It's great to have basic formulas here, but this is record cleaning, not The Manhattan Project. Rocket science it is not.
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Points well taken, but I just wanted to be sure that, based on Vince's previous post, someone wouldn't surmise that a 20%/w solution (for example) was made by adding 20g of material to 100 ml of distilled water, as this would make a solution almost 20% weaker than anticipated. The proper mixture would be 20g of material to 80 ml room temperature water (neglecting the very slight density considerations for water).

I wasn't trying to nitpick the 5% example in Vince's earlier post. I was just trying to clarify the concept in general. My purpose wasn't to step on anybody's toes.
 
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GoBlues said:
Points well taken, but I just wanted to be sure that, based on Vince's previous post, someone wouldn't surmise that a 20%/w solution (for example) wouldn't be made by adding 20g of material to 100 ml of distilled water, as this would make a solution almost 20% weaker than anticipated. The proper mixture would be 20g of material to 80 ml room temperature water (neglecting the very slight density considerations for water).

I wasn't trying to nitpick the 5% example in Vince's earlier post. I was just trying to clarify the concept in general. My purpose wasn't to step on anybody's toes.
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These questions need to be asked. For clarification.
 
GoBlues said:
The proper mixture would be 20g of material to 80 ml room temperature water (neglecting the very slight density considerations for water).
I wasn't trying to nitpick the 5% example in Vince's earlier post. I was just trying to clarify the concept in general. My purpose wasn't to step on anybody's toes.
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I think it was great you clarified this. As I said before, always completely dissolve the compound in a partial volume of water first, then bring up to the final volume with water. That said, your example for a 20% solution of 20 gm plus 80 ml doesn't really work for Behentrimonium chloride. Reason being, the solid flakes or pellets sold commercially at beauty or cosmetic suppliers is ~80% purity (the rest being ethanol). Hence, you would need 25 gms and 75 ml water (ignoring density) to get 20% final. Will it matter for record cleaning? Not really. Just like a "drop" of detergent added to a gallon of water can vary 20% or more since a drop is not consistent, but it works. It is important to do the same thing each time though if it is working. The problem comes when you try to share your recipe: you have to accurately describe what you did, which is why clarification is indeed important.
 
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Bootbox said:
Not a big fan of the abrasive click-bait thread title, thanks for the tips though.
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I read it and came away with my 'self esteem' well and truly intact!! Did you take it personally? Not everything is 'personally' aimed at you...:rolleyes:. Chill a little.....:beatnik:
 
stevoz said:
I read it and came away with my 'self esteem' well and truly intact!! Did you take it personally? Not everything is 'personally' aimed at you...:rolleyes:. Chill a little.....:beatnik:
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Of course you realise that he went into paranoia overdrive at your comment and meltdown over this post.
 
You folks are taking yourselves and life way too Cirrus. Not to mention acting like horses asses to one another. Lighten up please.
 
Vince1 said:
I wish it were simple, but you really need to dissolve the Behen in HOT water. I make a 5% solution (five grams per 100ml of distilled water). Once cooled, this gets added in the ratio of 1:100 for the final detergent mix (e.g. 10 ml of 5% Behen into 1 Liter of 0.5% Triton mix). The final concentrations won't be exact, but close enough using this method (I'm trying to keep the recipe simple). The 5% Behen stock you can keep around for a long time and use whenever you need to make a fresh batch of Ultimate wash solution. As you can tell, the package sizes typically sold will last a long time, so keep the package of chunks in a ziplock.
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Vince, forgot to ask is the method of making the EDTA solution the same as described for the Behen? Again thanks for all your help. Finally received the last of my chemical order so should start mixing soon.
 
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