Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

[Wildcat]

Dirty fingerprints really present a problem as they attract further contamination (both things that stick to the oils and things that feed on the organic contaminants). The older they are, the worse they get. Enzymatic treatment breaks these down to smaller components that can be more easily solubilized by the detergent or solvent.

That reminds me, I bought some used records a couple of years ago at an estate sale, and while most were in sad shape (VG or VG- average condition), I did find a few that were lightly played. But this guy, in addition to being a heavy smoker (the house still reeked of it, and things in there looked yellowed), he was very "hands-on" with his records, to which there were greasy fingerprints on a couple of them. So much so, that I couldn't clean them off. Could there also have been acids on his fingers that ate into the vinyl? I don't think I hear any ill effects, but I still can't help but wonder if it is still grease residue, or that something has interacted with the vinyl. These records are decades old, one being an RCA 7" EP from the mid 50s.

 

[guest110]

Vince, forgot to ask is the method of making the EDTA solution the same as described for the Behen? Again thanks for all your help. Finally received the last of my chemical order so should start mixing soon.

It is not easy to work with the solid at home as you have to adjust the pH of the solution with NaOH. It is best to buy the available solutions of EDTA (usually around pH8). If you bought the tetrasodium (or tetra potassium) salt, it is easily dissolved, but keep in mind the stock solution (usually 0.5M) has a basic pH (9-10). This is OK as it will be diluted many-fold in your working solution.

I don't know if anyone has read this yet, but...hey, we're doing it wrong. Shouldn't it be 2-in-1 shampoo and conditioner?
Nah. All those additives, dyes, perfumes and oils aren't going anywhere near my Dynavector! Thought I would point this out to @Vince1 just for kicks...
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=79003

Thanks for the link. It isn't all about pH, and the author is incorrect about Tergitol and Triton (solutions of which are neutral in pH). He/She also assumes incorrectly that the surface of a record is normally neutral pH. On the contrary, it is acidic due to PVC breakdown. Hence, even water will help neutralize. It is correct that a strong acidic or basic cleaning agent can increase the frictional properties of the record surface. We have been discussing this here with respect to glue, scrubbing bubbles, etc. 2-in-1 shampoos could be fine, but why introduce the anionic detergent to begin with? Why not just stay neutral, and add a cationic as an antistat? As you mention, we avoid all the other components (salts, perfumes, oils, botanicals, etc) by making our own and the cost ends up being LESS than the commercial 2-in-1 (not to mention way more environmentally friendly as we don't have all that packaging!). Some of the salts and oils in shampoo/conditioners actually attract dust, but people wash their hair frequently so it doesn't matter. Cosmetologists want to replace the natural oils in hair (which isn't possible, but that's another story) so they include them. We don't want to wash our records daily, so keep the salts and oils off them. Finally, the latest 2-n-1 formulations use organosilicon reagents that leave a coating that may or may not be desirable on PVC. Nobody has studied this yet, so I avoid it.

 

[Wildcat]

My big, big issue with that 2-in-1 method is exactly those additives, and we can never be assured they will all be removed during the cleaning process. Especially a conditioner which attempts to moisturize using--what?--oil. We really don't want unknown oils on our vinyl, as some oil can congeal and harden over time (a side of Rice Krispies with your vinyl, sir?), or who knows, could the wrong oil even soften the vinyl? And even if it remains in a stable, liquid state and doesn't react with the vinyl, oil does attract and hold more dirt. Ever see an engine with a small oil leak, where it seeps out from the valve cover and collects on the side of the engine over time? What do you notice? Is that old oil a nice honey color, or is it sort of black and gritty? Quite grimy, isn't it. So do we want oil on a record that will hold dirt like fly paper every time it is out of its sleeve (not to mention, likely contaminating that sleeve also)?

At least my records would no longer suffer dandruff.

That whole post reminds me of "found science" (if not "junk science"). Get a wild idea, then search the Internetz to back up all of your claims. And write about it in classic "DAK catalog" style with paragraph after tedious paragraph of evidence, since you need so much verbiage to sell the screwy idea...

And if it were so good, the LOC would be using it, no?

 

[Arthur Smith]

I have watched more "junk science" and voodoo than I care to mention, on YouTube. I think people are making more money on overpriced gadgets and snake oil than they are on selling vinyl itself. They reality is that most of the folks trying to reduce pops and clicks are doing so with "thrift store vinyl" that they hope to make sound better. Reality is that a lot of that stuff has more wrong with it than deep groove dust. It usually has deep scratches and gouges. All the cleaning in the world is not going to make those go away. I also see many 20-plus step rituals, without any "before and after" sound comparisons. All I can say is, whatever makes you happy. If you would rather soothe your OCD, great. I'd rather listen to music. Good common sense here is the best application of advice that anyone can utilize.

 

[guest110]

just be advised that any cleaning agent will leave a very fine ("molecular") film on the record surface. Not all of it washes away, even after many rinses. This is the nature of the surfactants. This is desirable in our case as, in choosing the correct ones, they aid in conditioning the record surface in a manner that reduces friction and static potential without accumulating or attracting more dirt. They are similar to, and synergistic with, certain plasticizers in this regard.

 

[Arthur Smith]

I'm a music lover, not a chemist.

 

[guest110]

I'm a music lover, not a chemist.

That's like saying "I'm a food lover, not a cook". If you love food, you learn to mix recipes and use them (or if you're rich, have someone do this for you every meal). There is a lot of science in how the ingredients combine and interact to yield that perfect dish. A crude understanding of these principles brings you from a cook to a chef and provides concoctions that elevate the eating experience!

There is little doubt that a properly cleaned record enhances the listening experience and a poorly cleaned one detracts from it.

 

[Arthur Smith]

That's like saying "I'm a food lover, not a cook". If you love food, you learn to mix recipes and use them (or if you're rich, have someone do this for you every meal). There is a lot of science in how the ingredients combine and interact to yield that perfect dish. A crude understanding of these principles brings you from a cook to a chef and provides concoctions that elevate the eating experience!

There is little doubt that a properly cleaned record enhances the listening experience and a poorly cleaned one ruins it.

Sorry, I don't quite see it that way. Cleaning my vinyl to such an extent that I am doing it more than listening to it, well, is not quite what I'd like to do. There does come a tipping point known as the point of diminishing returns.

 

[guest110]

Sorry, I don't quite see it that way. Cleaning my vinyl to such an extent that I am doing it more than listening to it, well, is not quite what I'd like to do. There does come a tipping point known as the point of diminishing returns.

??? I deep clean my records once, then listen to, and enjoy them for years and years. This is not about daily cleaning.

 

[Wildcat]

Usually the records need one deep cleaning, maybe two if a record is really stubborn, but beyond that, a clean sleeve and a carbon fiber brush to whisk away stray dust is all that is needed. I dislike record cleaning with a passion, so the less I have to do, the better life is.

 

[WntrMute2]

Let's see, 2 minute wash with the Triton X-100, then rinse 1 at 30 seconds, rinse 2 at 30 seconds. Flip and repeat. Total time to wash a record 6 minutes. Maybe another minute to stack in the dish rack, sleeve and write the date on the sleeve. Yup, big waste of time at less than 10 minutes if I dawdle.

 

[mprince]

Shoot, I can do 5 records in 10 minutes with my Canfab 3D printed RCM...by the way, mixed up my first batch of quat this morning. Vince, I made a 10% quat solution, how much of this should I add to my solution?

 

[guest110]

Shoot, I can do 5 records in 10 minutes with my Canfab 3D printed RCM...by the way, mixed up my first batch of what this morning. Vince, I made a 10% quat solution, how much of this should I add to my solution?

What final Triton concentration you using Mprince? You want about 1:10 ratio quat to Triton. So, if you are using 0.5% Triton, you want around 0.05% Quat, or a 1:200 dilution of your stock. Let us know your results!

 

[SSaxdude]

I recently got Triton X-100 in the mail. I'm currently mixing it with distilled water. Little by little, per your instructions.

Can't wait to see how well this works.

 

[Arthur Smith]

Nothing like home brew chemistry formulas.

 

[SSaxdude]

Made the 10% Triton 90% distilled water mix yesterday. Then, today I made a mix of:

12 oz distilled water
.5 oz 99% isopropyl alcohol
1 teaspoon Triton/water mix

It ends up being something like ~96% water, 3.9% alcohol, and .14% Triton. I can't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head.

How does that look? I will try it out tomorrow.

 

[guest110]

Made the 10% Triton 90% distilled water mix yesterday. Then, today I made a mix of:

12 oz distilled water
.5 oz 99% isopropyl alcohol
1 teaspoon Triton/water mix

It ends up being something like ~96% water, 3.9% alcohol, and .14% Triton. I can't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head.

How does that look? I will try it out tomorrow.

Looks like you are in business! Let us know how it works out. You can go higher on Triton if necessary.

 

[GentleBender]

I've been a long time lurker here on and off. I've been following this thread for quite awhile and finally picked out a RCM and made a simple batch of this solution. Just distilled water, small amount of 99.9% Isopropyl alcohol, and Triton. I only had time for two records, first one was a sacrificial record that was not something I cared about to see how it would work. The results were amazing! So next up was my coveted (not that it is worth much, but I love it) Chuck Berry "Johnny B. Goode" album that I played occasionally after treating it with Groove Glide. It still popped and crackled all the way through, but no longer skipped. Now after cleaning it with this solution and a really good rinse, it sounds almost flawless (not the recording or mixing for sure).

I know I have a problem when I look forward to having the time to go through cleaning my entire collection. Two down and who knows how many more, maybe I will try to keep count. Long live vinyl!

 

[guest110]

I've been a long time lurker here on and off. I've been following this thread for quite awhile and finally picked out a RCM and made a simple batch of this solution. Just distilled water, small amount of 99.9% Isopropyl alcohol, and Triton. I only had time for two records, first one was a sacrificial record that was not something I cared about to see how it would work. The results were amazing! So next up was my coveted (not that it is worth much, but I love it) Chuck Berry "Johnny B. Goode" album that I played occasionally after treating it with Groove Glide. It still popped and crackled all the way through, but no longer skipped. Now after cleaning it with this solution and a really good rinse, it sounds almost flawless (not the recording or mixing for sure).

I know I have a problem when I look forward to having the time to go through cleaning my entire collection. Two down and who knows how many more, maybe I will try to keep count. Long live vinyl!

That's just awesome Gentlebend! That's a great Berry album and it's nice it has been improved and preserved. I find some of the older deep groove stuff really responds to a good cleaning. The cheaper thin stuff always sounds marginal, whether clean or not. The challenge is to find old great cuts that haven't been worn down by a bad or improperly adjusted stylus. I just had to throw away a dozen old R&B albums that I really wanted because of permanent stylus damage. All came from the same idiot and could have been quite valuable.

 

[Arthur Smith]

Looks like you are in business! Let us know how it works out. You can go higher on Triton if necessary.

You seem to have a great reputation on this forum for being a skilled cleaner, and cleaning formula guru. What, may I ask, is this Triton stuff I keep reading about?