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Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

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BDR_23 said:
Alright, thanks. I was confused as to how you measure the percentage. I do lots of baking and everything is typically weighed out so I thought it could apply here. So .1% translates to .1gm per 100 millilitre. The weight per unit thing had stumped. Now i don't know how to weigh out an amount that small...
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That's OK, you buy Triton as a 100% liquid concentrate so dilution is easy (nothing to weigh). For the solid surfactants and quats, make a 10% stock solution (easy to weigh 10 gms). One caveat: read the label as to the percent purity the solid is and adjust up accordingly (e.g. if it is only 80% pure, you would need 12.5 gms brought up to 100 ml final total volume with dH2O to get 10% stock). Also, pay attention to what those impurities are (some, e.g. benzene, should be avoided).
 
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Vince1 said:
That's OK, you buy Triton as a 100% liquid concentrate so dilution is easy (nothing to weigh). For the solid surfactants and quats, make a 10% stock solution (easy to weigh 10 gms). One caveat: read the label as to the percent purity the solid is and adjust up accordingly (e.g. if it is only 80% pure, you would need 12.5 gms brought up to 100 ml final total volume with dH2O to get 10% stock). Also, pay attention to what those impurities are (some, e.g. benzene, should be avoided).
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Is it true that exposing vinyl records to PVC like PVC in a pipe, can damage them? I've read PVC sleeves can cause "outgassing". Planning to build a record cleaning machine and I'm apprehensive about using a PVC to vacuum records.
 
PVC pipe to vacuum records will be fine, but I used 5/8" acrylic pipe from Tap Plastics:
IMG_8658_zpsh7uj7x8h.jpg
 
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BDR_23 said:
Is it true that exposing vinyl records to PVC like PVC in a pipe, can damage them? I've read PVC sleeves can cause "outgassing". Planning to build a record cleaning machine and I'm apprehensive about using a PVC to vacuum records.
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No problem with PVC vacuum parts. The sleeves, on the other hand, are in long term contact with the record surface. Over time they can fuse with the vinyl and leave a permanent, audible film on the record. This famously ruined many records stored in the BBC's Gramophone Library. Use polypropylene or acid- and static-free paper sleeves.
 
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Vince, mixed my first batch of cleaner per your described ingredients sans the IPA(new album cleaning). Apologies if I missed this in prior posts but what do you recommend for cutting the surface tension with the rinse dH2O? My rinse just pools on the surface and doesn't seem to reach the deep grooves.
 
CaptainICE said:
Vince, mixed my first batch of cleaner per your described ingredients sans the IPA(new album cleaning). Apologies if I missed this in prior posts but what do you recommend for cutting the surface tension with the rinse dH2O? My rinse just pools on the surface and doesn't seem to reach the deep grooves.
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How are you rinsing..Are you using a RCM? If yes, then you may need to adjust your brush so it rubs a little deeper. If by hand, use a separate "water only" pad to distribute the rinse liquid across the surface. You could also add a small amount of IPA (e.g. under 15%) without harm and this may aid in drying as well. You could also slightly warm up your rinse water since the surface tension decreases significantly with temperature. Another advantage of warmer water is things dissolve in it better (increased solubility). Not actually hot water though, as you don't want the record to warp. I wouldn't be too concerned about the deep grooves as the detergent micelles will partition to the water layer and rinse away as long as it is wet. They do this better in tap water (as it contains ions) but slightly warm distilled water is better for us as we don't want any salt deposits left behind. Once well-cleaned, there isn't much on the PVC for the water molecules to interact with so some pooling is expected.
 
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The "pooling" is one of the ways I can tell if the surfactant has been adequately diluted or removed during the rinse phase. The first rinse usually spreads fairly nicely due to the surfactant still left on the surface. Once that is vacuumed off, the second and final rinse beads or pools up as I'd expect. I call that good!
 
Vince1 said:
How are you rinsing..Are you using a RCM? If yes, then you may need to adjust your brush so it rubs a little deeper. If by hand, use a separate "water only" pad to distribute the rinse liquid across the surface. You could also add a small amount of IPA (e.g. under 15%) without harm and this may aid in drying as well. You could also slightly warm up your rinse water since the surface tension decreases significantly with temperature. Another advantage of warmer water is things dissolve in it better (increased solubility). Not actually hot water though, as you don't want the record to warp. I wouldn't be too concerned about the deep grooves as the detergent micelles will partition to the water layer and rinse away as long as it is wet. They do this better in tap water (as it contains ions) but slightly warm distilled water is better for us as we don't want any salt deposits left behind. Once well-cleaned, there isn't much on the PVC for the water molecules to interact with so some pooling is expected.
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I am using a RCM and the vac is doing a great job of pulling the detergent mix off. The first and only (as this is not an enzyme wash) rinse just pools and doesn't distribute well even with the seperate pad. I will try warm rinse water then a low percentage IPA in the rinse as a last resort. Again thanks for this thread, and all your input...you too WntrMute2.
 
Bought me one of these RCM machines and then started my research into fluids after I received:


The machine works slick as snot save for the residual charge left on the vinyl from my crappy home brew solution of 3/4 by vol of dH2O, 1/4 IPA and a dab of rinse agent that I was using (thanks to another misguided site and my naivety). I now know the error of my ways! Too high concentration of IPA and wrong detergent/dispersant. Noticed that a number of home brew recipes I tried were producing static discharges like nobody's business - I stumbled onto this forum thread and read it pretty much end to end. Gotta say Vince that you have convinced me this is the way to go with my very modest exposure to Phys Chem from days as a Hydrocarbon Engineering Technologist (Petroleum Technologist) before going military. Now that I am sold - Only trouble is I'm a Canuck and having trouble obtaining the pure detergent (looking at Triton X-100) on this end to accomplish static free clean with a neutral head/long-chain detergent. Went to Amazon.ca as Amazon.com won't ship to Canada. All the other detergents you mentioned were simply not listed at all. The Amazon.ca site lists Triton X-100 in 100 ml bottle size but is out of stock - I still ordered it thinking it may come on back order - not sure I will ever receive so will look around locally to see what I can find.

Question: machine above seems good at $155 Cdn incldusive of shipping from Mississauga Ontario - works great I think. Thoughts if I get the fluid mix right as per your direction? Also should I be doing a deep clean on receipt of a new LP or only if it gets all gunked up after many uses (and perhaps abuses)? Will want to go the enzyme route for used record purchases but that will come later once I get this all worked out.

Thank you for all your efforts in educating us!
 
^ I'd recommend using your same cleaning solution on all your records. I used to pass on the new stuff but I feel better knowing the debris is washed out of the grooves. I don't care if I remove the elusive "mold release agent" as whatever that is is not going to be easily soluble with normal compounds as well as the pressing companies denying it even exists.My records grungy or not on the whole come out clean with no more than two applications of a straight Triton dilution.
 
Timothy Flath said:
Bought me one of these RCM machines and then started my research into fluids after I received:
The machine works slick as snot save for the residual charge left on the vinyl from my crappy home brew solution of 3/4 by vol of dH2O, 1/4 IPA and a dab of rinse agent that I was using (thanks to another misguided site and my naivety). I now know the error of my ways! Too high concentration of IPA and wrong detergent/dispersant. Noticed that a number of home brew recipes I tried were producing static discharges like nobody's business - I stumbled onto this forum thread and read it pretty much end to end. Gotta say Vince that you have convinced me this is the way to go with my very modest exposure to Phys Chem from days as a Hydrocarbon Engineering Technologist (Petroleum Technologist) before going military. Now that I am sold - Only trouble is I'm a Canuck and having trouble obtaining the pure detergent (looking at Triton X-100) on this end to accomplish static free clean with a neutral head/long-chain detergent. Went to Amazon.ca as Amazon.com won't ship to Canada. All the other detergents you mentioned were simply not listed at all. The Amazon.ca site lists Triton X-100 in 100 ml bottle size but is out of stock - I still ordered it thinking it may come on back order - not sure I will ever receive so will look around locally to see what I can find.

Question: machine above seems good at $155 Cdn incldusive of shipping from Mississauga Ontario - works great I think. Thoughts if I get the fluid mix right as per your direction? Also should I be doing a deep clean on receipt of a new LP or only if it gets all gunked up after many uses (and perhaps abuses)? Will want to go the enzyme route for used record purchases but that will come later once I get this all worked out.

Thank you for all your efforts in educating us!
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Pretty cool device at a good price, thanks for sharing the video. I agree with everything said (except the dish soap and high alcohol!). This system involves a bit of manual labor, but seems like a lot of thought went into it. Should work great with a triton or tergitol based wash solution. The water rinse is appreciated. My regimen involves much more scrubbing in the detergent step than shown however.
Shame about availability. I went off the grid for a couple years up just outside of Smith Falls. ON for awhile (cottage on an island on the Rideau) so I know the difficulties you Northerner's face, but you are so close to Toronto that you should be able to find a detergent source. Like Wntrmute, I wash my new records. It is appalling how much debris come off some of them. Looks like you're on the right track! My memory is that it is damn humid up there, but if static continues to be a problem, we might be able to hook you up with a quat. Let us know how it goes!
 
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Without going thru 25 pages of posts, what do you all think are on your discs which needs to be removed?

So I perused a little more, and noticed that someone has surmised that anionic or cationic detergents cause cracks and pops during play. Is this conclusion based upon testing or hypothesis?

Again, what needs to be removed from the grooves? Did you spill olive oil on your records?

Tom (chemist, too)
 
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Vince1 said:
Pretty cool device at a good price, thanks for sharing the video. I agree with everything said (except the dish soap and high alcohol!). This system involves a bit of manual labor, but seems like a lot of thought went into it. Should work great with a triton or tergitol based wash solution. The water rinse is appreciated. My regimen involves much more scrubbing in the detergent step than shown however.
Shame about availability. I went off the grid for a couple years up just outside of Smith Falls. ON for awhile (cottage on an island on the Rideau) so I know the difficulties you Northerner's face, but you are so close to Toronto that you should be able to find a detergent source. Like Wntrmute, I wash my new records. It is appalling how much debris come off some of them. Looks like you're on the right track! My memory is that it is damn humid up there, but if static continues to be a problem, we might be able to hook you up with a quat. Let us know how it goes!
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Thanks Vince - got a line via a kind gentleman on PM so am making arrangements. I am actually clear across the continent in Victoria, British Columbia (Vancouver Island). Can pretty much spit on Seattle from here except for a pesky ocean in the way ;-)
I do know Smith Falls quite well as I lived in Ottawa for four years (National Defense HQ) and have a sister in Kingston where S.F. is halfway between the two-ish. I also have an old buddy who owns a summer camp just outside S.F. (Camp Otterdale). Small world....
 
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Forgot to mention that I use the prescribed paint pads I got from Home Depot. One for the cleaning solution and one for the dH2O rinse. Works like a charm for the mechanical scrub component. Once I get rid of the residual static issue I will be golden. Do you have any experience with the Zerostat like guns? Worthwhile or waste of time? A friend has an old oak case Discwasher set with the gun he is going to sell me cheap for helping him sell off a really old but cool/pricey Technics SL-M3 linear tracker (pristine) turntable that I came close to buying myself (story in another thread this forum)...
 
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WntrMute2 said:
^ I'd recommend using your same cleaning solution on all your records. I used to pass on the new stuff but I feel better knowing the debris is washed out of the grooves. I don't care if I remove the elusive "mold release agent" as whatever that is is not going to be easily soluble with normal compounds as well as the pressing companies denying it even exists.My records grungy or not on the whole come out clean with no more than two applications of a straight Triton dilution.
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Many thanks. Will shoot for a good clean out of the starting gate...
 
Bierbelly said:
Without going thru 25 pages of posts, what do you all think are on your discs which needs to be removed?
So I perused a little more, and noticed that someone has surmised that anionic or cationic detergents cause cracks and pops during play. Is this conclusion based upon testing or hypothesis?
Again, what needs to be removed from the grooves? Did you spill olive oil on your records?
Tom (chemist, too)
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Hi Tom. Most of the contaminants on records are inorganic (fibers, dust, PVC scrapings, etc). There are also a lot of organic contaminants due to human handling. The biggest problem is that few people wash their hands before playing with them, which is why the lead in edges are particularly noisy. Oils from fingerprints are among the worst as they are sticky and attract more debris. Cigarette tar can also be an issue. Human hands can also transfer proteins and carbohydrates that can feed microbial contamination. Molds and mildew are prevalent in places of high humidity where old records are often stored....the old paper sleeves making things worse. I have cultured all sorts of bacteria and fungi off record surfaces and they vary widely. So we are dealing with a mixed bag of contaminants, depending on the history of the particular record. Cross-contamination can also occur between records as they are subsequently handled. We are not discussing daily cleaning here, but a solution for old record finds or previously unwashed records. Basically, a treatment we can do before we add a record to our collection.
Ionic detergents do not by themselves cause pops and clicks. Surface chemists have found that a molecular layer of detergent remains behind on a PVC surface after washing with it (as is true with many surfaces). When this surface is anionic, it can contribute to a build up of charge when rubbed against other surfaces and separated. This static charge attracts dust and debris and that is what can be heard as pops and clicks. This is commonly observed and has been tested by preservationists, including those at the Library of Congress.
It doesn't take an oil spill to make an audible difference on a record. We are dealing with very sensitive vibrations and microgrooves where even very small amounts of contaminants can make an audible difference in the amplified signal. Surely you have detergent washed a record before and heard a difference?
 
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Vince,

I've got my first Triton/IPA distilled water solution in a 10 liter ultrasonic cleaner working its magic for the first time. While I'm waiting for the results (20 minutes of slow spin @ 45 C), I was wondering about a quicker way to dilute Triton in dH2O. How about nuking the water in a microwave first for a short while (30 seconds?), and then afterwards adding the full amount of Triton required for the mix, and shaking it up?
 
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