GentleBender
New Member
It is pretty sad how many people don't know anything about VTA, VTF, Azimuth or alignments. I can see why people think CD's and MP3's sound better.
Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods
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GentleBender
New Member
I picked up a 500ml bottle from Amazon that will last me several lifetimes. http://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb...ds=triton+x-100&sprefix=triton,industrial,157
Arthur Smith
Super Member
Great- but why do some folks seem to use it as is, while others add it to other fluids?
GentleBender
New Member
My guess is that they has a specific need(s) or like playing mad scientist.
This link is what Vince1 is using http://sites.google.com/site/vincesaudiofiles/. I stuck with the basic formula first to see how well it worked before getting complicated with it. The two records I cleaned came out better than I had imagined and at the moment I can't see a need to improve. The only thing that wasn't removed were the shallow scratches that no solution can remove. I did pick up some enzymes in case I run into something filthy.
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I guess people may not want to go through 470 some odd posts so it might make sense to summarize:
We’ve been using non-ionic detergents (Triton or Tergitol) to clean our records as recommended by preservationists. They are superior to common detergents (e.g. dishsoap or shampoo) as they do not introduce a negative charge which can promote static and solutions of them are neutral in pH. Like most detergents, they have long hydrophobic tails that help solubilize things like fats and polar head groups that make them soluble in aqueous solutions where they form micelles. We use them at a final concentration of 0.1 to 0.5% for initial cleaning of a dirty record. We also (optionally) add a bit of isopropanol solvent to aid in fluid dispersion and releasing contaminants. We are keeping the final concentration of alcohol to 15% or below to reduce the risk of extracting useful plasticizers incorporated in the vinyl. Some of us are also adding a cationic detergent to our mixes. These are quaternary ammonium surfactants (often called “quats” for short) that are antistats and have antimicrobial properties. They are typically found in hair conditioners and antistatic products (like fabric softeners or Statiguard). An example is Behentrimonium Chloride, and we have been including them at 0.05% or lower. A few adventurous audiophiles here are also experimenting with adding EDTA, a chelating agent, that binds and solubilizes iron, magnesium, and calcium deposits (major minerals found in water). Finally, in cases of very grimy records, we have discussed a method of enzymatic treatment prior to detergent cleaning that helps solubilize fats, sugars, and protein, the main organic contaminants found on surfaces.
So in a nutshell, that is what folks here are playing with and the results have been great. We have gone away from treating our vinyl with harsh household cleaners or introducing chemicals that aren’t compatible with a delicate surface intended for sound reproduction. One theory behind the use of the specific detergents is that they also leave behind a molecular layer that helps keep the surface conditioned in a way that reduces friction and does not introduce negative charge.
Much of the discussion has been on the best way to prepare and store these ingredients. For example, the Triton needs time to dissolve so we make a 10% stock solution and keep it in the fridge, or we dissolve a small amount of Triton first in some isopropanol, dilute it up with water, and use it up in a batch wash. Other parts of the discussion have been on methodology, most advocating the use of ultrasonic or vacuum-based cleaning machines. I recommend reading the entire thread if you don't already have a cleaning protocol. Also, stay tuned as many are just starting to tweak their formulations so we should have some great further discussions coming up!
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totem
Addicted Member
On this and other longish threads a periodic summarize is or should be mandatory.
Great informative thread.
Or just put the instructions in the first post, step by step.
I thought about this but it is not really practical. There is no single way to skin this cat. Triton works as good as Tergitol for example. A ultrasonic bath solution might be different than a hand-cleaning one for another. What is available to you (equipment and chemicals) might not be available to someone else, so the discussion is more about the concepts that people can adapt. People have been posting formulations that work for them and their cleaning methodology using these concepts so others can follow.
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GoBlues
Principled Uncertainty
Great job on the math SSaxdude.
I came up with 96.7% water, 3.15% IPA and 0.15% X100, based on your recipe.
I need to get a life...
I ended up increasing the alcohol to 1 oz total, and the Triton mix to 3 teaspoons (AKA 1 tablespoon). I didn't do the math, but I'm sure I'm in the safe zone for both. This is assuming I measured everything correctly.
How do I know if I used too much Triton? Will there be residue left over on the record being cleaned.
How do I know if I used too much Triton? Will there be residue left over on the record being cleaned.
GoBlues
Principled Uncertainty
93.7% water, 5.9% IPA, 0.4% X100, based on your revised recipe.
cyto
Super Member
I have been using the Triton X-100 in lab grade DI water for a while (about 0.5ml in 1 Spin Clean fill), no alcohol. I gets the albums about as clean as other solutions I have used. The most significant change for me is a marked reduction in static on the albums I cleaned with it.
The rough theory on this, so folks don't have to scroll through all the posts, is that records will accumulate a negative charge. They aren't made that way...they BECOME that way. Vinyl records are not good conductors (rather, they are insulators). Things like towels, sleeves, and even clothing impart this charge on the surface during handling (via rubbing together and separating - see "Triboelectric effect"). Furthermore, as PVC degrades, it produces acid that remains on the surface and contributes to the negative change. Most detergents are based on SDS (sodium dodecyl sulfate; aka sodium lauryl sulfate) as it is cheap and works well on dirt. The polar head group of SDS is also negatively charged however, and since a molecular layer of detergent is left behind after cleaning, the charge problem is further compounded. This charge will find a way to neutralize, hence the pops or sparks associated with static discharge. It can also find neutralization by interacting with charged dust particles so the cleaned record actually attracts dirt. This is one reason why we shy away from dish soap and other household cleaners (another reason is that they contain other ingredients we don't want on our records). If we use a pure non-ionic detergent, it will not compound the problem and will also help rinse away some of the built up acids on the record surface. If our environment is prone to static, we can further add a positively charged detergent (an cationic like a quat) that will leave behind a slight positive charge that will neutralize charges transferred from handling or built up over time. It seems simple, but there are plenty of commercial record cleaning preparations that still use SDS. People use them, then dry their records with a towel, and see clean records but with static. Manufacturers know about these problems, but a few have not wised up to the fact that it is all in their solutions. I learned a lot from a guy at Intel who worked in clean rooms where static and dust can be very detrimental: the work surfaces are cleaned with non-ionic detergents and treated with quats. Since we can hear the consequences of static (accumulated dust or, worst case, a charge pathed at our cartridge), it only makes sense to deal with it and not encourage it.
BTW: Water is a good conductor and can reduce static, so simple wet rinsing can help whereas dry wiping can hurt. Likewise, water in air (humidity) can help so some use humidifiers in their homes.
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I recleaned a copy of Roxy Music's Avalon with the above mix (thank you GoBlues for doing the math) and there is a noticable improvement in the amount of low level pops and crackle.
Though to be fair, I made some other changes to my cleaning routine that may have helped as well.
Though to be fair, I made some other changes to my cleaning routine that may have helped as well.
Ultracon
Member
My input..... I took delivery on two pints of Tergitol S-3 and S-9 from Talas today. I mixed the recommended 10-20 drops each in a gallon of distilled water and put the solution in my humble Spin Clean. I spun my worst record, an ancient and much abused copy of Music from Peter Gunn, by Henry Mancini. I spin the record 10 times each way, then repeated. After that, I rinsed with distilled water, and hot damn! 90% of all the noise and crackles were gone!!!! I was going to toss the LP but now it is a keeper! I have tried all kinds of solutions with alcohol, distilled water, spin clean solution, I have shampooed records, rinsed, and cleaned and cleaned. Nothing, absolutely nothing performed even close to this tergitol! Boys and girls, if you can't afford hundreds and thousands for a fancy cleaning machine, THIS is the way to go! The two pints from Talas cost about $50 including shipping, but at a few drops per gallon of solution, I expect them to last forever. I am ecstatic over the results I am getting. Even a clean record put through this cleaning comes out with silent grooves. Of course, damaged grooves are still going to be a problem, but dust, grit, and mold are now gone forever! I love silent grooves!
i looked at that Talas website. They offer the hard to find Tergitol mix, Triton, and even the Ecosurf non-ionic detergents. Great resource, thanks Ultracon!
BDR_23
New Member
First time posting here. Glad to find this thread. I see lots of various cleaners on the market and was wondering about the chemistry behind good record cleaning.
After making the Triton concentration, could you measure the water and triton concentration by weight? Or would that not be the same as by volume?
After making the Triton concentration, could you measure the water and triton concentration by weight? Or would that not be the same as by volume?
Thunderbox
Super Member
Pure water is actually an electrical insulator and I wonder if distilled water is a good rinse agent because of that. I understand that once you add Triton to water it will probably conduct very well. In that light should we be adding something to our rinse water to help it conduct?
I'm not sure what you are asking. Trying to determine the Triton concentration in an unknown solution? That is not a simple task. Or trying to weigh out triton instead of measure volumetrically? In this case, you would be close. Detergent concentrations are commonly given as weight per unit volume (gms per ml of solution). We typically buy a 100% stock (100gms/100ml) and dilute it by percentage (10 fold dilution gives 10%, 1000 fold 0.1%, etc.)
I do my initial rinses with tap water, but not because of conductivity: the ions it contains can actually help solubilize certain contaminants. These tap rinses would be the initial blast to remove grit, then the first pre-wash with detergent (if included). Then I switch to distilled water solutions and rinses. I'm not worried about leaving the record non-conductive, just concerned with not leaving a charge built up on the surface. Records were never meant to be conductive and they are fine if handled correctly. Just like a balloon doesn't stick to things unless you impart a charge on it by rubbing it rapidly across your hair. If I have issues with static with a poorly treated record, the antistat additive (quat) takes care of it.
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BDR_23
New Member
Alright, thanks. I was confused as to how you measure the percentage. I do lots of baking and everything is typically weighed out so I thought it could apply here. So .1% translates to .1gm per 100 millilitre. The weight per unit thing had stumped. Now i don't know how to weigh out an amount that small...
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