• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Russco Cue Master build

Made a little more progress in lowering the noise floor even more. First, I received the ROK mounts which are rated at 1# and I first removed the rubber from an old one and put it in the back to replace the 2# one. The stock one is 1/2# and I’m a little OCD so there is that. It worked so well that I decided to try 1# on all three. So, that lowers the rating from 4.5# to 3#. My theory is that if 3# is enough to fully support the motor and not cause any weird oscillation, the softer mounts might reduce vibration. I believe they did. The ambient noise from the motor is now as much as from the internal fan as it is actual vibration. Hum with the stylus in the groove but no rotation is very faint. I did add a grounding strap to provide a better motor ground but am not currently grounding the turntable plinth because it seemed to create a ground loop. The arm is grounded to the SUT and the SUT to the phono stage. There is a ground connection from the arm to plinth through the mount of the armboard to the aluminum because the mounting bolts touch the arm boss.
I did order a delrin idler wheel which I hope will lower the speed and reduce what little rumble there is. IMG_4357.jpeg
 
Have the same tonearm but don’t recall if it has a separate ground wire to wand (4 or 5 wires out of the arm?) Also, is the metal of the arm touching the metal table or is that done away with by your wood armboard?

Mentioned on Roger’s page is that the idler pressure adjustment needs to be done with the needle dropped, you’re probably aware but wanted to mention things I’d forgotten probably forgotten to mention….


Andy
 
adnick said:
Have the same tonearm but don’t recall if it has a separate ground wire to wand (4 or 5 wires out of the arm?) Also, is the metal of the arm touching the metal table or is that done away with by your wood armboard?

Mentioned on Roger’s page is that the idler pressure adjustment needs to be done with the needle dropped, you’re probably aware but wanted to mention things I’d forgotten probably forgotten to mention….


Andy
Click to expand...
It’s a 5 pin connection. There are at least two possible ground connections between the arm and aluminum plinth.
1) The arm is mounted directly above the existing hole because this arm has the same effective length as whatever they sold. Might have been sold with this Syntec arm even. The threaded stem goes through the hole and may touch. Surely, the 30mm nut on the bottom of the arm board is touching the aluminum even though I filed it thinner. Can’t go any higher because the arm is parallel to the vinyl as it is and the arm is as low as it can go. IMG_4359.jpeg
2) The three bolts securing the board kiss the mounting boss. If I knew that it was stainless through I might spin it down but I suspect it is plated brass. Because of #1 it is moot.

I put the 2# mounts back in the front locations. With the ROK mounts in the ambient motor noise was lower but I felt more in the plinth and there was a bit more hum through the stylus. Small changes really matter here.

I may have mentioned this earlier but I have endured much higher hum using a Grado on a big Hurst motored AR. This is just seeing how quiet this deck can run. First world problem.
 
On the ‘small changes really matter here’ subject, I changed the support under the turntable. For the last year or so I’ve had a granite slab here but it wasn’t good with IMG_4360.jpegthis 50# turntabe sitting on spikes. I felt like the midrange was a bit harsh and glassy for lack of a better word. The granite may have reflected vibration rather than draining it away.
Yesterday I pocket up two IKEA bamboo cutting boards and put a layer of cork between them. They are supported by 3/8 dense foam, similar to sorbothane. It’s dead and the sound is smoother.
 
It doesn't matter if the TT is called a Russco or a QRK its the same turntable with the same speed errors and same wow and flutter and the horrible rumble. We used the 50 hz filters of the TT isolated phono pre-amps so the rumble wouldn't cause the mixers , sound processors and limiters and compressors from going crazy trying to protect the transmitter. So protect your speakers and amplifiers especially if they are tube by installing high pass filters tuned from 45 to 60 HZ. We didn't have 24 db/octave filters back then. I think we were using 12/db per octave filters in the Urei stereo phono pre-amps. But it might have been 18 db/octave. I had the miss fortune of trying to use two QRK tables with a disco system that extended down to 30 HZ. It was fun but scary watching the grill cloth flopping about as the speakers reached down to 30 HZ. So they were replaced with our first two SL 1200' Using Stanton 500's with elliptical stylus assembles from Stanton. .
 
Last edited:
Blackdog61 said:
Look, you don’t like these turntables and that’s fine. Personally I have better ways to spend my time than crashing your threads.
Click to expand...

Believe that @twiiii just cuts and pastes his old tired experiences, and rejects any ideological, technical and material improvements that negate his experiences…..unfortunately he does this on other peoples threads bashing their projects solely based on his enlightenment while decrying the ignorance of all the others.

What you experienced with the rock slab is probably reflective resonance or noise and vibrations, glass does this very well I’ve used glass in plinths to reflect noise away from a particular point, like a tonearm and/or the user. Not a new concept, it’s been done by many.

Another concept that can compliment your plinth design is vibration/noise transference and/or redirection to areas or specific points, like plinth “feet”.

These are simple concepts which are easy to accomplish at a basic level, one can just copy a layered plinth design or fill a box with sand…..it takes much more effort, time and experimentation to discover the “why did this work so effectively with that table but not as much with this one?”

Then there’s the new parts and materials, take the TD124 for example; anyone can purchase the new shaft well cap and bearing, spring or gumby motor mounts, precision idler, (about $300 in custom parts) and completely change the -dB capabilities of the table (how quite it is) without investment in a new plinth. However a correctly designed/implemented plinth will take it to another level….

That’s what @twiii doesn’t understand or ignores, the Russco’s improvements over what he experienced is a sum of the updated parts and plinth design evolutionary improvements; new motor mounts, grub screw with delrin pad, custom made delrin idler and well implemented plinth completely transforms these tables!

Idlers have a special presentation, some can’t detect, but many notice right away especially if they have another drive type as a comparison. My observations is that some tonearms and cartridges bring this out while others mute the effects, so individual experiences vary…..

Keep up the effort to improve the Russco, it’s satisfying and rewarding :trebon:

Andy
 
Last edited:
I've passed on so many Russco/QRK/Gates tables from radio station remods my butt is black & blue:( Should've saved myself one or two. Oh, well....
 
My first decent turntable was a Dual 1229 (I think) around1975. I was fourteen years old. I do remember it had a basic Shure cartridge and when my older brother brought it to me with a Sanyo integrated amp I was impressed. It was just the thing to spin my 45 singles on…….Needless to say, I didn’t appreciate it and ‘upgraded’ to a new JVC direct drive plastic fantastic piece of debris and a cheap Technics receiver. I now had a DD turntable which would spin at perfect speed and a receiver that only had .00000000001%distortion!!!!!
Then I met a guy who dealt in vintage HIFI and I picked up a PAS and ST-70, questioning everything I had ever heard or read about this stuff. Why did this outdated tube stuff which was hot, noisy and had terrible specs deliver the illusion of real music? I bought an AR turntable and put a Grado on it. I threw a lot of money on it to overcome its ‘shortcomings’. That was my turntable for over twenty years and I never thought it could be beaten.
Then a friend gave me a Dual 1019……….. That thing had some serious low end which brought a drum kit and electric bass into the room. It also had some bad rumble which I couldn’t get past. Got an ARXA which had a sweet sound and threw a big soundstage, then a Pioneer PL-41 which put the AR on the shelf. Found that the Pioneer loved having a DL-103 at the business end……………. But I began to see an interest in the old idlers and remembered the way that Dual 1019 pushed the low end into the room and here we are.

There is a point to all of this. Over this long journey I have learned to trust my ears, distrust those touting specifications and really distrust ‘experts’.

If someone thinks the pursuit of old technology whether it be vacuum tube amplification, idler wheel turntables, or the vinyl medium for that matter is foolish, that’s OK. Someone had bad experiences with poorly maintained idler turntables in the past. The fix seemed to be to put high pass filters on them to cover up the rumble rather than fix the problem. It is fascinating to explore the possibility of taking the positive attributes of these old turntables and vastly reducing the effect of the negative in a way that improves the experience of listening to music. Personally, my plastic DD turntable in the 1980s forever put me off that technology and I can’t forsee using a DD turntable at any point. That’s my experience but only that. I don’t understand why some people think what they think or do what they do, but I don’t tell them they are fools. Beliefs change over time and we’re all just having new experiences; learning new things.
 
Andy, to your point of the unique presentation of idlers that some listeners can detect is important. Part of being deep into anything is being open to, and training our senses to notice things. Wine enthusiasts are keyed into tasting subtleties that I‘m not but I could probably win a blind taste test of several bourbons.….. Is that a good thing?
When the Russco first spun music my wife kind of rolled her eyes and said she was happy if I could hear a difference because she couldn’t. What DID begin to happen is she sits down with me to listen in a way she never has before. She is ENGAGED in the listening experience. Maybe it’s due to a deep low end, huge soundstage or the good old P.R.a.T... It’s a much bigger and engaging experience for sure.
 
Cut one side one of Sarah Vaughan ‘Crazy and Mixed Up’ to break in a brand new stock DL-103. 1960’s technology can deliver the goods.

Yes, this album sounds a bit better than it did last night so the old cart is due.
 
Blackdog61 said:
My first decent turntable was a Dual 1229 (I think) around1975. I was fourteen years old. I do remember it had a basic Shure cartridge and when my older brother brought it to me with a Sanyo integrated amp I was impressed. It was just the thing to spin my 45 singles on…….Needless to say, I didn’t appreciate it and ‘upgraded’ to a new JVC direct drive plastic fantastic piece of debris and a cheap Technics receiver. I now had a DD turntable which would spin at perfect speed and a receiver that only had .00000000001%distortion!!!!!
Then I met a guy who dealt in vintage HIFI and I picked up a PAS and ST-70, questioning everything I had ever heard or read about this stuff. Why did this outdated tube stuff which was hot, noisy and had terrible specs deliver the illusion of real music? I bought an AR turntable and put a Grado on it. I threw a lot of money on it to overcome its ‘shortcomings’. That was my turntable for over twenty years and I never thought it could be beaten.
Then a friend gave me a Dual 1019……….. That thing had some serious low end which brought a drum kit and electric bass into the room. It also had some bad rumble which I couldn’t get past. Got an ARXA which had a sweet sound and threw a big soundstage, then a Pioneer PL-41 which put the AR on the shelf. Found that the Pioneer loved having a DL-103 at the business end……………. But I began to see an interest in the old idlers and remembered the way that Dual 1019 pushed the low end into the room and here we are.

There is a point to all of this. Over this long journey I have learned to trust my ears, distrust those touting specifications and really distrust ‘experts’.

If someone thinks the pursuit of old technology whether it be vacuum tube amplification, idler wheel turntables, or the vinyl medium for that matter is foolish, that’s OK. Someone had bad experiences with poorly maintained idler turntables in the past. The fix seemed to be to put high pass filters on them to cover up the rumble rather than fix the problem. It is fascinating to explore the possibility of taking the positive attributes of these old turntables and vastly reducing the effect of the negative in a way that improves the experience of listening to music. Personally, my plastic DD turntable in the 1980s forever put me off that technology and I can’t forsee using a DD turntable at any point. That’s my experience but only that. I don’t understand why some people think what they think or do what they do, but I don’t tell them they are fools. Beliefs change over time and we’re all just having new experiences; learning new things.
Click to expand...

Really enjoyed reading about your journey, and I’m happy you’re having positive experience with the Russco, they are certainly worth your time and effort..

Andy
 
Blackdog61 said:
Andy, to your point of the unique presentation of idlers that some listeners can detect is important. Part of being deep into anything is being open to, and training our senses to notice things. Wine enthusiasts are keyed into tasting subtleties that I‘m not but I could probably win a blind taste test of several bourbons.….. Is that a good thing?
When the Russco first spun music my wife kind of rolled her eyes and said she was happy if I could hear a difference because she couldn’t. What DID begin to happen is she sits down with me to listen in a way she never has before. She is ENGAGED in the listening experience. Maybe it’s due to a deep low end, huge soundstage or the good old P.R.a.T... It’s a much bigger and engaging experience for sure.
Click to expand...

Hard to explain or even grasp if one can’t detect it, and in my experience each idler presents a bit differently. Important thing to remember, so I’ll say it again, certain tonearms, mats and cartridges enhance the idler’s strong points.

Even when my DP75 was setting next to my idler, I’d find myself unconsciously playing vinyl on the idler without actually thinking about it…an the DP 75 is a fantastic table.

The only belt drive I’ve used that has similar presentation to an idler is my Fairchild 412, it has a dual belt system ( long & short with intermediate pulley), heavy filled platter and a huge bearing assembly.


When you get a plinth built capable of running a long tonearm, believe you’ll be in for another pleasant surprise :thumbsup:

Andy
 
I received the delrin idler wheel today. Although I didn’t spin any vinyl I took some speed readings with the phone app and it consistently came in at around 33.4rpm which is much better. With a 103 at 2.5g I believe the stylus drag will being it down to 33.3. Still, I don’t think one percent either way is discernible. I do hear the wheel turning but it is much lighter than the stock wheel and the frequency is higher. I imagine that this will be a factor in raising the frequency of whatever rumble there is to be less intrusive. The bearing tolerance is much tighter.
 
The Delrin definitely has more mechanical noise than the stock wheel and I’m not sure why. I ended up using the stock washer on the bottom and two nylon washers on top, securing it with two of the original clips hoping to dampen any tendency for vertical movement. That, I doubted because there is no discernible wobble in this. Still, after this I do hear a bit of mechanical noise even after adjusting the screw for just enough pressure to maintain contact. I oiled the bushing and am going to just run it, hoping it works in. The speed is better and this reading was done with no stylus drag. There is maybe a bit more detail in the low end compared to the stock wheel. Splitting hairs. IMG_4389.jpegIMG_4390.png
 
Blackdog61 said:
The Delrin definitely has more mechanical noise than the stock wheel and I’m not sure why. I ended up using the stock washer on the bottom and two nylon washers on top, securing it with two of the original clips hoping to dampen any tendency for vertical movement. That, I doubted because there is no discernible wobble in this. Still, after this I do hear a bit of mechanical noise even after adjusting the screw for just enough pressure to maintain contact. I oiled the bushing and am going to just run it, hoping it works in. The speed is better and this reading was done with no stylus drag. There is maybe a bit more detail in the low end compared to the stock wheel. Splitting hairs. View attachment 3164131View attachment 3164132
Click to expand...

Unless there’s an obvious issue, my tendency is to refrain from taking comparative measurements until several hours of runtime have elapsed. Also it’s important to have a Teflon washer against the bronze bushing, top and bottom….

Had purchased a high dollar idler for my 301 from a well known overseas source, put it on and did a test spin without the platter, just against the pulley, vibration was so bad that I videoed it and sent a copy to the vendor…they sent me a new one and were perplexed on how my bad one made it through quality control. Don’t think any run in time would hand helped that one 8-)

Happy Easter,

Andy
 
I will get some teflon washers but it was noisy with just the stock washer on the bottom; the top unsecured. No difference I can tell.
 
Your motor is a Bodine motor. Find a nearby motor shop who deals in industrial motor repairs, they can repair/rebuild it. It's the same motor used to power large town clocks. Best wishes on getting this classic back to health.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
Your motor is a Bodine motor. Find a nearby motor shop who deals in industrial motor repairs, they can repair/rebuild it. It's the same motor used to power large town clocks. Best wishes on getting this classic back to health.
Click to expand...
When I disassembled the motor (three times, I think) there was no detectable wear. What I thought at the time was sludge on the metal thrust plate where the ball bearing rides may have been grease. That came to me from somewhere or something I read. The thrust plates looked brand new. I have adjusted the grub screw in the bottom for minimal play and the capstan runs true. I’m tempted to open it up again and put a dab of grease down there. Has anyone tried a delrin thrust plate? It might wear quickly at 1800 rpm but it’s an idea.
As much as I understand that the Bodine motor tends to be noisy, I can imagine that it can still be improved. I’m reluctant to spend money having it rebuilt though. I have another one I’m inclined to experiment with. Might try a new cap on that one to see what can be done.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom