KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Is your Shure stylus genuine? Is it worn? Styli do wear? Is the stylus clean? Are you tracking it in the middle to high end of the recommended range?
Should I upgrade my table or replace it?
- Thread starter AceTechHD
- Start date
Is your Shure stylus genuine? Is it worn? Styli do wear? Is the stylus clean? Are you tracking it in the middle to high end of the recommended range?
The SL1200 has many fans here. When I've heard them, I wasn't overly impressed, but each person listens for different things. Years ago, Tone Audio compared the AT-PL120 (predecessor to the current AT-LP120-USB) to a stock SL1200 and liked the AT better. A reviewer at Sound & Vision compared his SL1200 Mk II to sub-$500 belt drives from Rega and Music Hall and liked the belt drive models better.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/face-best-turntable-budget-page-4#VWwKqhHzOceXuiUC.97
What HiFi was liberal in its praise for the LP5, but also pointed out that the then-current Rega entry-level RP1 sounded better (and they like the new Planar 1 better than the RP1). I haven't seen a mention of whether you have a dealer to work with or not, but the best way to be sure that your money will actually be buying improved performance is to listen to options with your own ears before making a choice. With a different stylus or cartridge, you might be perfectly happy with your current turntable. Then again, through audition, you might hear a better 'table that you can't live without. If you don't have a good dealer to work with, all you can do is read reviews, gather opinion from sites like this, and make your best guess (and you can assemble a pretty fine system that way, too!).
Another thing to bear in mind is that just because something better exists doesn't mean you have to have it to enjoy your records. What HiFi made that point in their LP5 review. After noting that the Rega would be step up, they continued, "but it cannot detract from the AT-LP5’s musicality. Sonically, the RP1 has the edge you’d expect from a sole-purpose turntable, but when we switch back we are more than pleased to listen for the rest of the day without missing the extra detail or dynamics." Given that you want to stay away from belt drive options, you might prefer the LP5, or some other direct drive, even if you heard something that sounded a bit better in direct comparison.
Read more at https://www.whathifi.com/audio-technica/lp5/review#wQHMMDLgq211HQ5y.99
I had a "sounds good enough" experience with my aging LP12. After decades of use, the main bearing was beginning to show signs of wear, and the dealer suggested that with a new power supply and motor to go along with the new spindle and thrust plate, my Linn would be ready to give another 20 years of great performance. On the other hand, even in its worn condition, it was worth more than enough on the used market to let me sell it and buy a brand new Rega RP3. I wasn't sold on the earlier P3-24, but the RP3 was an obvious advance, "contagiously musical" as one reviewer put it, with "a superb sense of pace and rhythm." In direct comparison, even my aging Linn was better, but the Rega still got my toes tapping. I play music just about every morning, and for the last few years I've been more than pleased to let the humble RP3 provide me with album after album of thoroughly engaging record playing.
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Rog50
Active Member
Just a cheap conical N447
Here is an interesting tidbit http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/shure-m44e-vs-m55e.700306/
Kent makes some good points about the stylus and setup. Do you know what stylus you have and how old it is? Shure has said that any of their styli that are 10 years old or more, whether they've been played or not, could have issues with a hardening of the rubber suspension parts, and I believe Shure's N44E has been out of production for longer than that. The tracking force range for the original N44E stylus is 1.75-4.0 grams, but an after-market stylus might have different specifications. What tracking forces have you tried?
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Soundork
Super Member
I went through the same ordeal earlier in the year. My budget was $600, I didn't listen to the advice given here and wanted new having nothing else, but reliability in mind. Finally ended up with a recently CLA'd Denon DP1200 for which I paid $202.
My advice is that with some patience, you can get some really nice used decks. If you cant really wait and are set on having a new turntable, get the Denon DP300F. It is the best bang for the buck and with a good cartridge performs just as well if not better than the decks in the upper range of my limit. Stay away from Uturn Orbit.
My advice is that with some patience, you can get some really nice used decks. If you cant really wait and are set on having a new turntable, get the Denon DP300F. It is the best bang for the buck and with a good cartridge performs just as well if not better than the decks in the upper range of my limit. Stay away from Uturn Orbit.
AceTechHD
Active Member
I'm going to assume it's genuine. There's nothing that would make me think otherwise. It sounds exactly like an M44E. I even have posted an example of what it sounds like. I also posted a picture of the cartridge and stylus where you can clearly see my stylus is clean. I'm tracking at 2.0g. I think I should point out that I'm not a brand new to vinyl, I've just never owned a high quality table before. Since the M44E is actually a good cartridge my issue seems to be that of a warn stylus. The 44E is a little too harsh sounding for my taste but I guess some people like that. I probably won't waist my time (and money) getting a new stylus. I'm interested in a much smoother sounding cartridge such as the aforementioned NAGAOKA MP-110. Here's a recording I made of my M44E: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4yETdJ-P_rFOTA5YU9zbDJZZGs/view
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AceTechHD
Active Member
I have no idea how old the stylus is, though i'd guess it's older than 10 years of age. If you'd like to see for yourself check out the photos I posted.
AceTechHD
Active Member
I'd really like to get a new table, but it doesn't have to be brand new. I'm very open to getting a used Technics Sl-1200 as it has features I'm interested in such as a quartz lock and direct drive. My only stipulation on buying a used table is how long would it last (especially if it's been heavily used by a DJ). After reading about the build quality the Technics has I wouldn't mind taking a chance on one. Also I'd like to address a question many people have asked, I have two record shops in my area. Both are hit and miss in terms of used tables. They consistently have the AT LP-120 in stock but i'm not terribly fond of that table. So pretty much if I saw a Technics Sl-1200 i'd have to buy it immediately because there's no telling how long it would be there. Ebay and Craigslist would be my best bet in finding a good used table.
beat_truck
Addicted Member
If I were you, I wouldn't limit myself to just the SL1200 when looking for a TT. There were many, many other good models made over the years. A lot of Technics other DD models were excellent and can be had a lot cheaper because they are not an "SL1200". Good deals are out there. Patience and constantly watching places like CL, flea markets, estate sales, etc. is key. Just last year, I picked up a Technics SL1300 AND a Pioneer PL550 (nice solid woodgrain manual DD TT), both in excellent shape, for $100 for the pair from CL.
cratz2
Addicted Member
Ten years old? I'm FAR from a vinyl snob but I've changed the stylus on my backup cartridge twice in the last five years.
I'd start with a new stylus or the MP-110. And I'd get a digital tracking force scale.
A worn stylus tracking at the improper weight will make ANY setup sound less than ideal.
A new turntable is fun, but judging your current setup as is would be like driving a Ferrari on $50 Walmart tires and declaring it, 'Italian junk.'
I'd start with a new stylus or the MP-110. And I'd get a digital tracking force scale.
A worn stylus tracking at the improper weight will make ANY setup sound less than ideal.
A new turntable is fun, but judging your current setup as is would be like driving a Ferrari on $50 Walmart tires and declaring it, 'Italian junk.'
beat_truck
Addicted Member
Also to see if the stylus is your problem you could always order a cheap but excellent stylus like the EVG 4759-DET from The Voice of Music. https://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/catalog/part_detail.asp I have one, and it sounds great for the price. Plus, for a little more money, there is always Jico which many folks here swear by.
AceTechHD
Active Member
Never thought i'd meet an owner of the mighty LP12 that would settle for something less after owning one. Over the years I've collected vinyl my ears have become incredibly keen. I can tell if the pitch changes suddenly and I'll notice even the slightest bit of sibilance. You're right, one doesn't need the best table out there to have a good sounding setup. I'm hardly in the market for an LP12 at this point. I'm looking for a table that has an incredibly stable speed, direct drive, and a very sturdy construction. At this point i'm leaning toward the Technics SL-1200. I've heard countless praises about Rega tables, but I've never been keen on the actual look of them. If I heard one it's possible I'd change my tune. I do have 2 record shops in my area, but their selection is very limited. My best bet for finding something would be Craigslist, Ebay, and Amazon. While my current table certainty isn't "bad" I find it hard to enjoy my music when it's distorting all over the place and just generally sounding too harsh to my ear. I'm sure that with a brand new stylus the M44E is a pretty good cartridge, but from examples I've heard on YouTube it's generally just a loud harsh sounding cart. The channel separation also isn't the best and certainly is much worse than my Realistic Lab-1600 table had. I am willing to upload more examples of the table and cartridge in action. Here is a track from an album I opened the other day (brand new out of the shrink wrap). After I opened the album I placed it right on the platter and made this recording. The track never clips, but continues to distort at nearly any loud point in the music. If you're interested listen here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4yETdJ-P_rFRHlaM0dvT0ZmMUE/view?usp=sharing
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AceTechHD
Active Member
I'm curious what part of my setup would be the $50 Walmart tires. Bose makes some of the best speakers you can buy. Onkyo certainty isn't Mcintosh but calling my receiver or speakers $50 Walmart tires seems a little absurd. Of course upgrading my receiver and speakers would't hurt (which could be said for anyone) they certainly are very good components. Just to clarify I have an Onkyo TX-DS494 AV Receiver and Bose 501 Series V speakers. Also I'll add I have a Marantz SR-5100. While it's definitely a beautiful looking receiver I doubt it's better than the Onkyo.
beat_truck
Addicted Member
The $50 Walmart tires are the 10 year old. probably worn out stylus you are using.
JesusGreen
Member
^ Yeah I don't get why anyone would get the AT LP5 over simply getting the cheaper AT LP-120.
Personally I wouldn't want something with that high a wow and flutter spec, but given the choice, the LP120 is an easy winner because it has the same specs at the AT LP5, but also has adjustable tonearm height/VTA, which the LP5 doesn't. That's the one thing the LP120 has going for it, it's probably the cheapest table to have easily adjustable VTA.
Also given the SL-1200 vs AT LP5 choice.. That's like asking: Which is more calories: A grape, or a 50cm pizza. There's not even any contest, the SL-1200 is a dramatically better table in every way. If you have the opportunity to get one in good condition, go for it. Used will always yield better results than buying new under $1000 (and even beyond that, most of the time, used will get you more for your money - quality turntables used to be cheaper than they are today. Even $600-800 turntables today often get beaten by tables that cost $150 used)
AceTechHD
Active Member
At this point we have narrowed it down to the stylus being the issue. I'm curious what you think of this recording I made of a brand new album on my current setup: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4yETdJ-P_rFRHlaM0dvT0ZmMUE/view
AceTechHD
Active Member
I wouldn't mind hearing the LP5 in person, but honestly at this point you guys have sold me on the Technics. Has everything I need and does't break the bank.
Since you're leaning to buying used, replacing your cartridge now while waiting for a good turntable deal to come along makes some sense. It will be interesting to me, anyway, to hear your appraisal of your current turntable when using a cartridge more to your liking. Was your interest in the Nagaoka sparked by YouTube samples? There are some amazing online resources for information these days. If your Lab-1600 had the stock cartridge, it appears that was a modest cartridge (typical .4 X .7 mil elliptical) sourced from Audio Technica; AT cartridges are often praised for their stereo performance.
Perhaps because they've listened to both and like the LP5 better.
That's helpful information provided you actually had a chance to do a comparative audition. I'm a bit jealous as I haven't yet heard an LP5
I'll admit it, I'm a fan, but primarily because comparing a Technics to a Dual or Garrard is like comparing a Toyota to a BMW. Except, I think the German cars are actually easier to work on than German turntables, and I'm not convinced that they're significantly more fun to drive. The Toyota (Technics) will just ask for some regular maintenance every now and then and if given same will reward you with years of reliable, hassle-free tunes. A Dual works just as well, but good lord if something breaks beyond the usual headshell or steuerpimpel, well, you got a little project on your hands. And I completely gave up on a Garrard Lab 80; it defeated me.
The Technics, even the SL-1650 (basically a fully auto, changer version of the original - not Mk2 - SL-1200) which I have, is an absolute joy to work on. Everything is modular and comes out very easily. On mine I had to re-oil the cueing damper and R&R a little piece that set the disc size to get the automatic functions working correctly. I can tell you from personal experience, trying to disassemble and reassemble a SL-1650 is a piece of cake compared to doing anything on a Dual 1229Q. And technically, the only thing the Dual really has going for it is the single/multi height adjuster for the tonearm pivot. And guess what, that piece is notorious for breaking and being a cast iron female dog to replace. (Edit: I forgot that the 1229Q also will play at 78 RPM, which the Technics will not. Now you can overcome that if you find a SL-1200 Mk4, but I don't believe that was ever officially sold in the USA.)
Now if you want easy to work on, get yourself an AR XA, but then again I wouldn't leave an XA sitting in the living room and yell from the kitchen "yeah, if you see anything you wanna play just play it" either (which I'm totally OK with with a full auto like the Dual or Technics.)
The full auto argument doesn't fly with a 1200 Mk2 (the classic Technics table, unless you're talking high end stuff like a SP-10) but it's just such a damn icon that if I found a good deal on a nice one it'd probably have to come home with me. Pretty much anything ever used as a good broadcast table I'd find hard to resist.
There are, obviously, other options more aimed at the audiophile market, but I do have some love for the SL-1200 and its derivatives. The 1650 has redeemed Technics in my eyes after getting pissed off at them for the plastic POS that I bought in college thinking that well, we used Technics at the radio station, so this other Technics should be good, well not so much. In hindsight back then I should have saved my money and bought a 1200 Mk2 back then, because as soon as I got my 1650 I remembered a) how tank like and unfussy they were and b) they don't sound bad, either.
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