Speaker cables have shown to made a difference... does it matter?

[robgmn]

I don't see evidence that science has all the answers and even if it did, it would be flawed by my human experience of that science. So, I guess I'll one day grow tired of trying to communicate the idea of ears being the best decider of those things we hear and then I will just sit quietly and contently and listen to my mind tricking me into believing my cables are making my sound more to my liking.

I support the fact that a different cable CAN affect a signal in one way or another.
Better or not IS going to be subjective (I'll again reference the 17 year-old who thinks his brother's 4 Pyle 8" woofers in a 3/8" ply box with copious air leaks soounds better than 2 JL 12" woofers in a properly built box) and people can never be right or wrong (except if you're comparing to majority opinion).

I don't support the idea that our ears are the best judge because of the human experience mentioned (though if you put enough ears together and properly test, the test results are likely going to be accurate if the majority hear the same thing).

 

[cwall99]

Another thing with ABX tests is, you really are going to have to dig into the data to realize the truth of the matter. The topline isn't necessarily the whole story. Say only 5% of the people "guessed" correctly. But they did it consistently every time. And 95% got it all wrong, or were just spread out randomly. Statistically what would you do with the 5%? Some would dismiss it as a statistical outlier (I've seen this in some of the audiophile "proof" challenges, when you read into the fine print). And then when you do consider them, the slights against "Golden ears" will begin. But I actually believe that some people have ears better trained to realize differences than others, so that's a red herring with me.

Not that what I've said above in my previous posts on this is all logically sound...I've certainly made my share of "appeal to ridicule" charges.

Not sure why you'd be guessing. In the ABX, you'd only be selecting which sound you prefer. You're not trying to decide which sound goes with which cable. You're just identifying which sound you like better.

 

[JohnVF]

The other part of that difference is not considering methodical testing to be stressful .

That plays into it, too. I don't get any joy out of thinking too much about this stuff. In fact, I get incredibly annoyed by it. I have also found that "difference" and "preference" are really different things, and that I can only decide preference over a long period of auditioning in home in my system. As such, an ABX test would be useless to my decision making. I don't feel I need one to decide if I can hear a difference, I've already passed my own threshold for that regardless of what somebody else might need. So that leaves preference, and I need weeks to figure that out with any certainty.

 

[dumptruck]

cwall, buddy, if you're going to take us back 100 posts, did you read my response to that? Also, you're mistaken. ABX is identification. Not of the brand, but in the form of "is X the same cable as A or B?"

 

[JohnVF]

I don't support the idea that our ears are the best judge

When exactly are you ever going to find yourself in a position to judge your own stereo by any other means that matters?

Do you do anything else with your stereo besides listen to it?

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

I support the fact that a different cable CAN affect a signal in one way or another. Better or not IS going to be subjective (I'll again reference the 17 year-old who thinks his brother's 4 Pyle 8" woofers in a 3/8" ply box with copious air leaks soounds better than 2 JL 12" woofers in a properly built box) and people can never be right or wrong (except if you're comparing to majority opinion).

Ok, If we can agree that it can be different, now could we agree that something we actually hear through it, or because of it, may be missed in a given measure of it???

Well, for him, based on his criteria, intellect, and razor sharp 17 year old skills of observation... the Pyles are "better", right? (purely subjective)

Happy (17 year old) Listening!

 

[cwall99]

OK, I'll try again.

I do not think that either side of this argument understands what testing can or cannot prove.

Testing cannot prove superiority of a subjective preference.

Testing can prove that a difference can be shown to exist, or not to exist, within a statistical margin of error.

Testing cannot prove that any two sounds are identical. It can prove that in a rigorously-designed and administered double-blind test, two sounds can (or cannot) be discerned as identical. The difference is subtle but important.

Why is this? Surely science can prove if one thing is identical to another, right? Yes, but within the constraints that we know that what is being tested is what makes them identical. You can measure many things about sound, but you cannot measure what the listener hears - only what you are measuring for, which may not be all there is to measure.

Proper testing can indeed prove that any two speaker cables can be discerned from each other to within a statistical margin of error. If it can be repeated at will, it can be treated as a fact at that point. That does not prove superiority, and indeed, it cannot.

The question about whether or not the testing is scientifically rigorous enough to establish the conclusion is another issue. It is perfectly acceptable, and indeed part of the scientific method, to question the validity of the test itself.

But if we assume for the sake of argument that a proper test can be designed and implemented, there are only two things which can be shown as a result.

1) That a difference either can or cannot be discerned between tested cables.
2) If a difference can be discerned, that a preference among the test subjects can be established.

Both conclusions would have to be repeatable by anyone duplicating the test, assuming they followed the same protocols.

And neither conclusion would prove superiority of one over the other. The best that could be done would be to establish that there *is* a difference, and that a majority of testers preferred one over the other.

It does not invalidate anyone's preference if they choose something other than the 'preferred' cable, nor does it make them 'wrong'. And again, it does not prove superiority.

I think if we were to take a step back and simply look at this as if it were widgets and not something we have emotional attachments to, it would be easier to understand what science can and cannot do for us in this set of circumstances.

There. That's the best I can put it, with malice towards none.

Nicely put. I believe, though, that you could also design an ABX experiment to determine whether or not a statistically significant margin of listeners reliably expressed a preference for Stimulus A over Stimulus B.

It's essentially the same as determining whether listeners can discriminate between two different stimuli reliably (as you said, above, "Testing can prove that a difference can be shown to exist, or not to exist, within a statistical margin of error.")

The added twist, though, is whether, once they can hear the difference, they express a preference for one stimulus over another. You could essentially by-pass the the test for whether or not listeners hear a difference, though, because if listeners do express a reliable preference, then they can clearly hear a difference, and if they cannot express a reliable difference (meaning that sometimes they prefer Stimulus A over Stimulus B, and other times, they express a preference for Stimulus B over Stimulus A), it's reasonable to assume that the reason they can't express a preference is because they can't hear a difference.

However, that last point may debatable. I'm not convinced it is, but I'd be open to others' opinions on that.

 

[JohnVF]

I think the difference in my ABX test, would be that I would only care if I were involved. I don't need statistically reliable results, I would just want to know if I could tell the difference myself. Can you tell I have a pretty low opinion of many other people's take on what is and isn't the right audio path? Not all of them, but man, I have seen some people go bonkers over something that sounds like complete crap to me. Why would I want their opinion involved in what cables I choose? Why would it matter at all to me what anybody else can decipher? I'm not out for some all encompassing truth, I just want a nice stereo. And I think that is where a lot of people differ. The TRUTH, vs, just setting up a good stereo and chatting about.

 

[cwall99]

I would be very surprised if it didn't. Just one of many reasons why testing for "better" is more problematic than "different" (except when you're asking for "better", but really only looking for "different").

Hence my suggestion that rather than test for "better" (which would be problematic at its most fundamental level in terms of getting everyone to agree on an operational definition of what constitutes "better" sound - I just don't think it's possible), we consider asking people to identify which of two stimuli they prefer.

As I suggested above, "different" is certainly testable, but I don't think it helps us much. Whether something like a cable produces a difference in the sound we prefer is much more useful

Our preferences may not, despite all our protestations to the contrary, be a perfectly neutral sound. We may want to prefer a neutral sound, but we may actually prefer some coloration in what we listen to.

 

[JohnVF]

I think at the end of the day we're debating different personality types. I'm not trying to be a smartass with that, either. I really think we're debating the merits of different ways of thinking. It's like a cat trying to convince a dog how awesome a ball of yarn is, and the dog countering that a stick is obviously better. I mean, I read some of the above and think, "really? You want to go through that amount of trouble to settle something for your stereo?" It is so far beyond what I think is necessary and a wise use of time that I can only think that it's close to us all being from different species. Not one that is better or worse, just totally different mindsets who don't speak the same language, especially in regards to what constitutes a comfort level with one's decision making process.

 

[dumptruck]

Nicely put. I believe, though, that you could also design an ABX experiment to determine whether or not a statistically significant margin of listeners reliably expressed a preference for Stimulus A over Stimulus B.

That's an A/B test not ABX, and yes you could, and manufacturers occasionally do that (not for cables, as far as I know), but how many of us would care what the group tends to prefer, statistically significant trend or not? As I've said, I think it's much more interesting to run enough trials on a single individual to show whether that person could tell the difference, and optionally, what they preferred under those limited circumstances. As I've posted elsewhere, this page has nice clear instructions on the math for doing that:
http://blog.asmartbear.com/easy-statistics-for-adwords-ab-testing-and-hamsters.html

 

[Rapidan]

I've been popping into this thread occasionally just to follow along. Wow!

I tend to roll my own cables from good raw materials. No measuring needed, they sound better - to me. I don't really care whether it's measurable, whether I'm a victim of the placebo effect, nor do I care what others do or do not use.

I'm amazed when someone says " I swapped in XYZ cables and I heard this difference......." and someone disputes it. On what basis?

There seem to be a number of things which many here don't like, or nearly universally condemn as "bad" - but if someone else reaches a little higher, they become an audiophool. If you're happy with the level of music enjoyment you've reached, great! But why try to spoil other people's fun? It's a hobby, hopefully geared toward the enjoyment of music.

And in spite of the fact that I tend to lean a bit more to the engineering/science side of things, I do believe that perception is reality - With ears connected to a brain, how could it be otherwise?

Speaking of the placebo effect, it's real. People with serious illnesses often get well if they believe they are being treated, even if they really aren't. Would it be "better" if they stayed sick, since the sugar pills they are given don't "do" anything?

 

[cwall99]

And again... why should anyone have to prove anything?

If I made a product and boasted that it yielded miraculous changes to your life, and that you too could realize the benefits of my product for a mere $10,000, would you buy that product simply on my assertion that it would?

Or the assertions of 100 satisfied customers?

Or would you want reliable proof that my product actually yielded the changes it claims to create before dropping $10,000 on it?

Given the prices that some of these cable manufacturers charge ($4,000 for a 1.5 meter power cord or $8,000 for speaker cables?), Even if I were a multi-millionaire, I'd be inclined to want to test the manufacturer's claims.

No one wants to be taken.

 

[JohnVF]

If I made a product and boasted that it yielded miraculous changes to your life, and that you too could realize the benefits of my product for a mere $10,000, would you buy that product simply on my assertion that it would?

Or the assertions of 100 satisfied customers?

Or would you want reliable proof that my product actually yielded the changes it claims to create before dropping $10,000 on it?

Given the prices that some of these cable manufacturers charge ($4,000 for a 1.5 meter power cord or $8,000 for speaker cables?), Even if I were a multi-millionaire, I'd be inclined to want to test the manufacturer's claims.

No one wants to be taken.

I'd borrow the product and see if it worked for me and take it back if it didn't. What a group of people thought, unrelated to me, would be of no consequence. And you can do that with many cables.

I don't belief there is reliable "proof" in anything where a subjective preference comes into play. So I make a call based on observation and experience. I write ads, I don't care what anybody says in theirs. And no cable manufacturer or audio salesman has ever pushed them on me. I tried cables on the recommendation of a friend.

 

[dumptruck]

Speaking of the placebo effect, it's real. People with serious illnesses often get well if they believe they are being treated, even if they really aren't. Would it be "better" if they stayed sick, since the sugar pills they are given don't "do" anything?

This is not something we've been arguing about in this thread, thank goodness, but since I have some strong feelings about that particular simile, I want to point out that the answer is "no, BUT it would be better if they were not charged many times their net worth for the sugar pills". Nobody (hopefully) is going into a lifetime of debt to buy their favorite speaker cables, so we don't need to get all worked up about the possibility of someone being overcharged, even though we so often do.

 

[JohnVF]

One could also argue that if the purchase of a cable creates the illusion of a better system, than for all purposes that matter to that person, it isbetter. If he's not trying to win an objective comparison, his happiness has increased and all is well with the universe.

 

[Rapidan]

One could also argue that if the purchase of a cable creates the illusion of a better system, than for all purposes that matter to that person, it isbetter. If he's not trying to win an objective comparison, his happiness has increased and all is well with the universe.

Exactly. I wasn't trying to say that cable tweaks are a placebo, but if they are, what does it matter and who does it hurt?

I've often noticed that many folks here get tremendous enjoyment from music which would drive me right out of the room. And I'm confident that many of my choices would do the same for them. Are they wrong to misuse their lovely hi-fi's with such horrible swill? Am I?

 

[JohnVF]

Exactly. I wasn't trying to say that cable tweaks are a placebo, but if they are, what does it matter and who does it hurt?

I've often noticed that many folks here get tremendous enjoyment from music which would drive me right out of the room. And I'm confident that many of my choices would do the same for them. Are they wrong to misuse their lovely hi-fi's with such horrible swill? Am I?

That's why I don't personally apply the rigors of medical experimentation and rocket science to what, to me, is something entirely removed from the consequences of such endeavors. I don't understand the metaphors to those types of things, because I don't see the pursuits as being at all similar. But I also realize that for some people, this hobby is as much of an obsession about the technical aspect of things as it is about the music. For some, its nearly all technical. Their enjoyment and mine are based upon different criteria. I just don't want them forcing their motives upon me and my little stereo hobby. As its just a hobby to me, no dire failures predicted, no money spent is wasted as its all part of the fun and trying new things.

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

If I made a product and boasted that it yielded miraculous changes to your life, and that you too could realize the benefits of my product for a mere $10,000, would you buy that product simply on my assertion that it would?

Of course not, few things bought miraculous changes lives, for 10k is not mere, I don't care what someone asserts, if I don't hear it.

Or the assertions of 100 satisfied customers?

I guess it could be thousands and that only starts to peak my interest.

Or would you want reliable proof that my product actually yielded the changes it claims to create before dropping $10,000 on it?

Reliable proof for me would ONLY be, drop them off, I'll rotate them in and out for a month and IF they still intrigue me... you may have a buyer.

Given the prices that some of these cable manufacturers charge ($4,000 for a 1.5 meter power cord or $8,000 for speaker cables?), Even if I were a multi-millionaire, I'd be inclined to want to test the manufacturer's claims.

And many are far, far less than that, and might be considered to be proportionate to the worth they bring to the long term investment of a high-end kit. I hate to make this discrimination again, for it sounding snobbish but, a mid-fi kit would see less benefit in total resolution with cables in IMHO, and would have a different threshold of valve/price. I find two benefits in buying used cables, the price is nearly half and they are usually well broken in. Bonus.

No one wants to be taken. I agree.

Happy Listening!

 

[datafone]

Ah, the all loving cable debate :scratch2:

I DIY my own speaker cables, and have tried various wire and construction. But the biggest audible difference came when I moved to using Neotech 7N wire, suddenly everything was much smoother, a large amount of graininess that I was unaware of was gone.

The outlay for said wire was only $50 with postage.

If some doubt my experience, then that's fine, I'll do what works... regardless

The placebo argument is one used by those that don't or haven't been able to hear a difference, it doesn't make them right, It just means they don't/haven't experienced a difference.