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Speaker Shootout

Hi newworld/Fusion/Byron,

As someone whom was a primary buyer for two shops in Michigan ( Royal Oak and Ann Arbor ) back in the day, it was my duty to travel overseas and across the states to attend audio shows and report back to our owners which brands I felt would be of interest to our clients - and years later I've found that as Byron kindly puts it - have a trained ear for musicality for the sake of purity - truth of timbre - texture - tonality above all else, so yes I'm more inclined to try to dig within and offer sound advice and see people get to a point where they can admit to themselves that enough is enough - I mean the reality of selecting any given system should be based upon how accurately it presents music as said listener wants - not our wives/husbands - friends/associates - neighbors but ours.

Being that our firm stock Linn/Naim we were taught ( literally ) that everything begin at the source and moves downwards - as the olde jargon went " Garbage In, Garbage Out " still applies to this very day, yet as someone whom health doesn't allow me the movement to set up and enough either of my Well Tempered Labs Turntables ( Classic MK V as well as an Amadeus GTA ) I mostly rely upon any of the various iDevices I've laying about connected to an HRT iStreamer as well, yet I'm all to aware it's not vinyl - yet most people whom have visited my home have more likely then not stated that my system was musically balanced top to bottom.

Yet, as I'm self assured of what it is " I hear " and have come to believe in all of these years is that I've voiced it to suit my needs - and often tell close friends before they've even reached our home that it's " clicking "'and I don't intend on changing a think regardless of what each one of them says - but I generally get a look as if to say, you'd be a fool if you did.

So, it's nice to have reassurance even if I'm not looking for it - as I know what I know, and I love what I hear - so I'd say stick with the iDevices because at some point digital technology has advanced to the point that no matter what some would have us believe downloads/DSD is the future and it's a matter of knowing which direction to go in regards to adding a superior DAC down the road that's not obsolete within 4 - 9 months, as Byron and I are engaged in rather deep discussions on this very topic on a daily bases I might add.

Enjoy your system - the key word here is " your " and then select things/components which form a sense of synergy within your mind and/or budget and be done with it - as burn out is all but true in cases where one tends to know know their next move and are in constant search of an imaginary soulution to fix something that doesn't require it - in the end I've also learned there are times more often then not where any given component sounds different - not better - yet so-called Audiophiles as opposed to Music Lovers ( me ) tend to need that extra sense of added air/presence or even worst a fake sense of detail/resolution at the expense of beauty - well call me an out the box thinking and I shall plea guilty as charged - but as mentioned countless times - who is enjoying music ( me ) while some are content chasing and opening boxes every 6 - 13 months.

It's all about free will is it not?, trust in your instincts and they shall guide you on a path befitting of ones sense of self glory/gratitude.

As my inmate calling card states on Audio Asylum - Music Matters H/ear'

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/10562.html

Read between the lines - if it isn't broke?, leave it be.

Peace,
O_oh
 
The caliber of these posts does clearly point to the advanced state of this thread.
Thank you all for opening yourselves up this way.
We all benefit.
 
Apologies in advance for posting twice consecutively, but these are separate subtopics.

I'm making haste slowly on DACs. I think the manufacturers are making quantum quality leaps as DSD becomes available and I'm not a first adopter.
That's where I'm at.
How newworld chooses to approaches next steps for his system is up to him.
 
audiodon said:
The caliber of these posts does clearly point to the advanced state of this thread.
Thank you all for opening yourselves up this way.
We all benefit.
Click to expand...

Yeah, isn't it great that we are not congratulating ourselves in the most recent flavor of the month purchases?

I actually agree with you on dac's. Things are changing so fast in the digital realm, it would be wise for me to just make do for now. It also means yesterday's technology is very refined and cheaply available!
 
Ok, on top of my iPod dying, I just got a very nice offer for my amplifier. Tubes! Here I come! (But if it gets too expensive, I'm getting a cheap solid state)
 
Right . . . I just feel like it's not time to invest in DAC tech yet.
When I am ready, I will probably go deep.
I'd like to rip my vinyl to DSD (if it floats) and then keep the vinyl for ceremonial purposes.
 
audiodon said:
The caliber of these posts does clearly point to the advanced state of this thread.
Thank you all for opening yourselves up this way.
We all benefit.
Click to expand...

Hi audiodon,

You're more then welcome, as I've seen it for years - if one can't be totally honest with themselves during this quest and openinly admit that we have all made countless mistakes in selecting components until we had to re-learn how musical notes should be heard - why should I then praise them?.

I've constantly seen associates of my personally go through systems as if they were underwear - yet none of them understood the importance of merely living with a piece of gear ( hopefully before buying it ) and knowing its strengths and weaknesses - I mean in reality all audio components have faults and are compromised to one extreme or another - it's much like selecting that special someone to settle down with - shouldn't one at least know in their heart/mind when it feels right?, well audio demands that same sort of understanding - less one enjoys going in circles and never find their way.

Either ones system moves them emotionally - or it does not?. It's about indiduality at the end of the day one should strive for, less we could all go to Rat Shack and buy mass market components and be done with the chase for a fake asre sense of perfection - where there isn't any.

Live - Listen and Learn in that order I'd say.

It's about ones enjoyment of music, not the cost or pride of false ownership in this or that component - but how it speaks to ones inner being and draws one to tears is what it's about - yet many aren't willing to admit it - but music is meant to be emotional - not spotlighting HiFi effects like presence or subsonic bass notes reaching into Hales and rocking the underworld - it's about feeling/finding ones sense of peace through said journey.

I'm done - yes I'm the long-winded sort, but I've spoken from my heart and just how many dare do that?.

Cheers,
O_oh
 
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slippers-on said:
Newworld.....if you are a musician, then you are more than halfway there. I also assume you know what you want in a system....at least you know what sound you want from reading about how you came to get what you just purchased. This all tells me you can hear...meaning you have a trained ear. I'm sure some people look at my sig and see my amp and speaker combination and wonder why I have what I have. I don't have popular gear and it hardly ever comes up in conversation.



Well it was because after listening to endless pairs of speakers over the years, I was taken by what Canton speakers could do with music. I loved the voicing of Cantons....open from top to bottom, transparent very accurate and clear. And midrange voicing i had to have. I wanted to keep them that way....play to its strengths as you say. Cantons are German and I discoverd German voicing is unlike a traditional British sound and not like An American sound. I decided on Vincent because it had that important trait as well....clear and transparent nothing lacking in sonics or dynamic range and with a tube presence with great midrange. The speakers and amps had that synergy thang due to both have that German voicing going on. All was needed was a cable that seemed to add nothing nor subtracted nothing....the purest copper I could find and could afford. Now have you, Vincent is a budget option...German engineering but built in China, but that's a good thing as quality is top notch, sound is excellent, and price was well bellow it's performance...but I had to spend good loot on the Vento's....I couldn't find a budget speaker to replace them and besides I had to have genuine Canton. When you have a clear, transparent system, speakers and good cables, you can hear everything or every source upstream from the speakers. No matter what you add or subtract from your system, with clarity and transparency, you will hear it.



I say all that to say, seeing you are already ahead of the game because you can hear..... Chose your source gear carefully and lean on those in the know for help when needed, and never think you know it all, because none of us do. Lean on others because that's part of the hobby as well, bouncing things off those in the know. If not seeking council from those who have been around and in the know.. you may find yourself going down that slippery slope right onto that thing we call a Merry go round....wasting lots of loot in the process. Now to some audiophiles credit, they like switching gear in and out...after all it's part of the hobby...it's what some audio hobbyist do....but there are some who just can't hear, so they spend...spend and spend again. One who can hear, will learn to find the sound characteristics of components...understand it's weekness as well as it's strengths. And don't fudge on asking Big Guy ( Oscar ) about tubed gear, or Audiodon who seems to be skilled in the electrical side of things for advice.



I can be long winded so I will leave it there...but this will be interesting and fun following your thread. I like reading, won't say much for lack of time these days, but I like following and reading and learning....like I'm reading Arts LS50 thread...it's interesting seeing others reactions to said speaker.
Click to expand...


Those Cantons are special. Hopefully I can hear some of their stuff at Axpona this year.
 
newworld, congrats, I am sure you made an excellent choice with the specific ProAcs.

And despite that sometimes the trip is better than the destination, I wish for both to be equally satisfying to you.

(A very nice to read thread indeed)
 
Is tube pre/power really that much better than integrated? It must be pretty difficult to sell separates since people are more interested in small desktop systems, these days...

I'm looking at:

Quicksilver Audio separates
Audio Electronics separates
Jolida 202BRC integrated

I need some opinions because no dealer around here stocks affordable tube gear. Oh man, I have to send off my amplifier, tomorrow. I will be without music, again!
 
Opinions are wide open on that subject. I've grown up through out the 70's and most of my audio life with mostly separates and believe you get better performance from them. Some say a single unit has a cleaner look with less cables and one less box. I happen to like the two box idea for various reasons. No one can argue you have more options with separates. You can always switch one or the other out. With tubes....you have to decided if you want a more classic tube sound which can be syrupy, or a more modern tube sound like some Van Alstine as well as Leben products which lean towards more of a SS sound...and then you have some tubes that are in the middle like Vincent which is a hybrid with great tube presence but with bass slam as well. Have you heard any of the products you mentioned?
 
My suggestion:
Go slowly on this decision.
One alternative I can offer:
If you need a noisemaker ASAP, just buy some home theater or other receiver cheap off your local craigslist for interim use and then start looking. There are tons of non-HDMI HT receivers of surprisingly good quality available for short money now. They will work for 2-channel.
 
newworld said:
Is tube pre/power really that much better than integrated? It must be pretty difficult to sell separates since people are more interested in small desktop systems, these days...

I'm looking at:

Quicksilver Audio separates
Audio Electronics separates
Jolida 202BRC integrated

I need some opinions because no dealer around here stocks affordable tube gear. Oh man, I have to send off my amplifier, tomorrow. I will be without music, again!
Click to expand...

Newworld,

Of the options you've listed above, I've owned and lived with a pair of the original Quicksilver 8714's in tandem with an older Audible Illusion M3 and found the sound very beautiful balanced during the 4 years they stayed in our home, as I've owned separates only 3 times in my life - as I found that in some cases unless you were buying both preamp and power amp from the same company there were to many variables involved in trying to find the best preamp to match this or that power amp as sometimes you'd come across mismatched impedance loads where these shouldn't be in the same system not along the same state.

Lesson learnt over the course of years later - as Byron puts it - I'm more of an integrated amp proponent in the sense both it's parts are optimized to function as one taking the guess work out of what works best together - I also see this as an opportunity to venture out to more expensive cabling looms as one only has to buy an IC and LS Cables as well as an AC Cord that to my ears matter - and yes, I do hear differences in all of them within 5 minutes more or less.

Yet cabling separates has one settling on lesser cables due to cost if nothing else - say two pairs of $400 ICs whereas with an integrated one has the option to purchase what then should be a better sounding cable at say $700 - $900 whereas I view this as an added in the logical sense one has eliminated yet another added length or means of filtering ones system via less signal paths crossing in regards to the less is more rule of thought - each added cable acts as an extension of those before it - shorten the signal path and it should produce an even purer sound, yet some think otherwise.

I'd say pursue either a Cayin or Antique Sound Labs Integrated over the Jolida - as both are reliable first and foremost whereas some of the other Chinese based ones might be getting better - yet I'd prefer to go after ones with records of such, less you want to have a mishap with one and start again?.

Or as mentioned elsewhere - go through a Craigslist and buy cheaply until you've had a chance to hear your amp with a very shorten list of tube based Integrated's - because some are overlooked as tag eyre misunderstood how to integrate ( pun intended ) as to how to use them in tandem with any given speaker, but in your case know that no matter what's written about ProAc's liking solid state amps - and like well manned kids - they will/can............, but in the end they want to see tubes in front of them to be heard at their best.

I'd even do a Yaqin MC - 10t over most of the vintage stuff based upon what I've heard in a friends system based upon its fidelity along, and here we are taking about a mere $500 - $600 EL34 based Integrated, just be certain to get it those the guy in Canada vs one the sellers in China as having the right voltage from NA consumption makes all the difference in the world as 100v in our country spells trouble waiting to happen, whereas 110 - 115/117V are within safety guidelines.

Just food for thought.
O_oh
 
ambient said:
For tubes, LM, Rogue and Vincent all offer superb bang for the buck.
Click to expand...

Great point and options - I'll second these, I mean even the little Rogue Sphinx blew my mind upon hearing it through a pair of Maggie 1.7s - but here we're talking hybrid - but good sound none the less.

:yes:_o scar
 
Thanks, all. All of the suggestions sounds pretty good. It's funny how scarce tube amps are in contrast to the abundance of speakers around here.

I've lusted after Cary for many years ever since hearing some at a friend's place. It's just not something I could afford! The Xciter could be a great solution, but it might be too underpowered...
 
Trust me, as a suggestion...for the ProAcs, you don't want an tube amp to just drive them....you want a good tube amp with good current to make them sound full and beastly when needed.....and nice smooth and romantic with vigor/healthiness at lower levels to make those soft tone sound as full and well as can be...they still, at lower levels have to be rich with great texture. At lower levels you want a passionate singer to still sound passionate.

Vanessa Williams came out with an Album a few years ago called "The Real Thing" On that album the second song is called "Hello Like before". Man she make its personal as if she is singing right to me the listener. At lower levels the amp/speakers has to make her voice sound just as romantic and passionate as it does at medium to loud levels. I mean you want to hear all those little nuances in her voice as with medium to loud levels. You want to hear that richness in the mids at lower levels as the medium to loud levels. I believe you have that with the ProAcs. You may have to get a great hybrid amp with great current to give you that bass slam you want.
 
slippers-on said:
Trust me, as a suggestion...for the ProAcs, you don't want an tube amp to just drive them....you want a good tube amp with good current to make them sound full and beastly when needed.....and nice smooth and romantic with vigor/healthiness at lower levels to make those soft tone sound as full and well as can be...they still, at lower levels have to be rich with great texture. At lower levels you want a passionate singer to still sound passionate.

Vanessa Williams came out with an Album a few years ago called "The Real Thing" On that album the second song is called "Hello Like before". Man she make its personal as if she is singing right to me the listener. At lower levels the amp/speakers has to make her voice sound just as romantic and passionate as it does at medium to loud levels. I mean you want to hear all those little nuances in her voice as with medium to loud levels. You want to hear that richness in the mids at lower levels as the medium to loud levels. I believe you have that with the ProAcs. You may have to get a great hybrid amp with great current to give you that bass slam you want.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. I wouldn't mind giving up bass slam in favor of resolution though. What I need is an dimensionally open mid and highs with enough headroom, not rolled off or romanticized. I actually think the speakers are refined enough to give that impression. This is gonna be a tough one.
 
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